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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #68375 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-06-05 10:12 +0000 |
| Last post | 2025-06-28 14:10 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 402 — 44 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.os.linux.misc
What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-05 10:12 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-05 06:44 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Michael Uplawski <michael.uplawski@uplawski.eu> - 2025-06-05 13:12 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-06-05 13:03 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-05 11:11 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-05 14:22 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Ralf Fassel <ralfixx@gmx.de> - 2025-06-05 17:16 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:54 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-06 14:43 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:31 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-07 02:44 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-05 21:36 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-05 15:51 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-05 14:58 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-05 16:11 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:06 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-09 08:51 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-06 15:37 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John McCue <jmccue@magnetar.jmcunx.com> - 2025-06-05 14:03 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2025-06-05 16:50 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:30 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2025-06-06 21:51 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-05 08:21 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-05 18:11 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-05 10:46 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 13:23 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-06 14:47 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-06 21:02 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:27 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-07 11:07 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-07 13:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-07 17:17 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-08 00:02 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-08 03:31 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 08:59 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 09:48 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 09:53 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 08:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-09 09:47 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:31 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-09 23:55 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-08 14:47 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 13:52 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-14 08:30 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-14 11:01 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-14 10:52 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-14 21:17 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-14 23:35 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 09:52 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-16 18:15 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-16 23:24 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-06-16 18:28 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-17 01:56 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-17 08:33 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-17 22:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-17 16:04 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-18 00:04 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-18 04:28 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-18 16:15 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-18 05:30 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-14 23:30 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-15 09:23 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-15 08:59 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:38 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 08:07 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-09 17:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-09 19:53 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-09 21:34 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:34 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-12 15:10 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-12 18:12 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 10:00 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:16 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-07 12:54 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John McCue <jmclnx@SPAMisBADgmail.com> - 2025-06-06 01:58 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-06-06 00:50 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:47 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 08:06 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:46 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 08:05 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:23 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 07:59 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-09 07:20 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 10:01 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 18:20 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-09 08:59 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-05 17:37 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-06-05 12:15 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2025-06-05 20:44 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:21 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-09 08:56 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 18:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-10 02:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 03:25 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-10 18:11 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 03:25 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2025-06-09 17:58 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:36 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-06-06 00:14 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Ian <gay@sfuu.ca> - 2025-06-05 22:05 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-06-06 07:10 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:39 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 08:12 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 20:18 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-06 21:02 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-07 03:23 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 04:42 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:19 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 07:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? xyz@eatspam.invalid (JCJ) - 2025-06-28 14:44 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-29 00:02 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-06-30 10:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-06 19:29 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:23 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-07 10:57 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 12:28 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 09:38 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 18:13 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-10 02:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 10:25 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:26 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-10 07:45 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 16:55 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-10 15:43 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 09:12 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-11 13:03 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 13:01 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2025-06-11 18:36 +0300
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 17:11 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:37 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:21 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 22:27 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 03:25 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 09:24 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-11 13:04 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 17:29 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-11 17:46 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-12 02:39 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:51 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:22 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 09:13 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:46 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:56 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 03:43 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-11 07:54 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:33 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-12 11:27 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:20 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-12 18:26 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 12:04 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 17:15 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:16 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 12:34 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:58 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 11:57 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 00:08 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-06-06 12:57 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 13:26 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-06 14:53 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-06 18:46 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-06-06 18:18 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:16 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-06 19:37 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:14 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-04 20:45 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2025-06-06 08:29 +0300
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Jan van den Broek <balglaas@dds.nl> - 2025-06-06 08:01 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:33 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Jan van den Broek <balglaas@dds.nl> - 2025-06-07 11:03 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:11 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 07:06 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> - 2025-06-06 13:44 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-06 18:37 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:20 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:10 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 08:02 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:43 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 07:38 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 07:17 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood <phaywood@alphalink.com.au> - 2025-06-10 12:43 +1000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:42 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 03:34 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 12:12 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 13:51 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-11 17:04 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:48 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-14 08:34 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:43 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 08:47 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-18 05:20 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 00:10 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-12 02:51 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:03 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 12:12 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@nospam.com.ii> - 2025-06-12 11:31 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-12 08:37 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:23 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 21:49 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-12 16:17 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-13 01:26 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-20 10:37 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-21 07:12 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-23 14:29 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-24 00:13 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-01 14:10 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 00:04 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-02 01:13 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 01:26 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-02 09:25 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-07-02 11:56 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-07-02 08:35 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 23:27 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-07-03 11:37 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-03 19:11 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 10:32 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 19:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:05 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-10 00:50 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-10 05:47 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-10 09:35 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-07-11 11:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:04 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-02 07:43 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 23:21 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-03 08:26 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Harold Stevens <wookie@aspen.localdomain> - 2025-07-03 12:17 -0500
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 10:41 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-05 10:17 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 11:19 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 16:07 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 16:23 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 16:25 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 13:35 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 21:59 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 14:51 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 02:46 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 22:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:09 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-06 10:36 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 14:17 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-06 10:52 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-11 19:03 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-11 21:03 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-11 21:33 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-12 14:30 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 04:50 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-12 23:29 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 07:01 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-13 16:45 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 19:22 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-07-14 08:34 +1000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-14 03:20 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-14 09:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2025-07-14 18:46 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-14 19:27 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-14 09:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-14 19:14 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-07-14 11:13 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-14 17:07 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-14 19:44 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-14 13:24 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-15 18:21 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-13 07:32 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-13 12:47 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-07-13 17:00 +0000
DVD-Video DRM (was: Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why?) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-13 22:49 +0100
Re: DVD-Video DRM not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-07-14 14:17 +1000
Re: DVD-Video DRM c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-07-14 00:43 -0400
Re: DVD-Video DRM Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2025-07-14 17:48 +1000
Re: DVD-Video DRM rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-14 18:55 +0000
Re: DVD-Video DRM The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-14 14:56 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-13 16:45 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-13 10:03 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-14 00:14 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-14 03:24 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-07-14 11:07 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-13 12:15 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) - 2025-07-13 12:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 19:36 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-13 21:49 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-07-14 09:03 +1000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-13 16:45 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 19:40 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-12 10:54 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-07-12 08:46 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 02:52 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-07 09:07 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 22:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-07 09:45 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-07 18:26 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-07 10:42 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-07 20:34 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-07 18:56 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-05 19:12 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:14 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 12:56 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 02:47 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 18:37 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 13:44 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 22:44 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 16:38 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-06 04:46 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 06:05 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:09 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:03 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-04 21:34 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 09:45 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 06:07 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:14 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 21:35 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-07-28 21:26 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-06 10:41 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-02 09:31 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-03 13:04 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-04 00:48 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-04 08:21 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-04 23:29 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 10:05 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 22:57 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-07-30 22:15 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-30 23:44 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-07-30 23:21 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-07 10:20 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Harold Stevens <wookie@aspen.localdomain> - 2025-07-07 12:53 -0500
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 22:58 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-07-30 22:23 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-06-21 10:35 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-21 21:43 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-23 11:49 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:57 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 08:43 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-16 23:26 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-04 21:19 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 09:42 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-05 21:37 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 14:53 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 06:08 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 21:45 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-06-06 17:58 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-06 18:48 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-06 17:08 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 10:47 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 01:09 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 09:03 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:43 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-06 18:28 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-06 18:50 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-07 03:30 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 01:06 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 08:03 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-06-09 02:49 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 10:02 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:57 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 09:02 -0700
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:48 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 07:41 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 10:17 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 11:28 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 13:01 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 18:13 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 12:39 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 11:57 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 12:04 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 13:18 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 12:59 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 18:04 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-11 00:15 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 12:08 +0000
OT: ot crap - was: What Window Manager/Desktop....... Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> - 2025-06-11 17:14 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-11 00:14 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-13 01:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-13 01:26 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-13 03:27 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-13 20:50 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-13 23:34 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-11 00:13 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 17:59 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-04 21:13 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-04 21:12 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-04 23:12 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-07-05 18:35 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:34 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 18:48 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 07:15 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Narkiewicz <hello@ezaquarii.com> - 2025-06-06 19:30 +0100
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:17 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-07 10:54 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 12:31 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-07 18:49 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 23:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-07 16:00 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 01:03 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-06 19:18 +0000
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-06-06 22:35 +0200
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 10:44 -0400
Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? xyz@eatspam.invalid (JCJ) - 2025-06-28 14:10 +0000
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-12 17:23 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <102eutp$2phh9$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #68728 |
On 12/06/2025 16:37, John Ames wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 11:31:00 -0000 (UTC) > Borax Man <rotflol2@nospam.com.ii> wrote: > >> I don't mind interfaces designed with those who have an eye for art, >> for aesthetics, as long as its combined form with function. The >> issue is people sacrifice function for form > > This is key. I'll take usability over aesthetics any day, but the > nicest computing experiences are the ones that manage to juggle both. > Classic MacOS *almost* nailed this, if only it hadn't been so quick to > dismiss the keyboard and the command line (and were designed from the > start for preemptive multitasking and memory protection...) > +1. -- No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-12 21:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <102fi1k$2u1dt$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #68728 |
On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 08:37:05 -0700, John Ames wrote: > Classic MacOS *almost* nailed this, if only it hadn't been so quick > to dismiss the keyboard and the command line (and were designed from > the start for preemptive multitasking and memory protection...) It took extra-cost hardware to do that stuff back then. That’s why the Unix boxes cost so much more. The Classic MacOS GUI was purpose-built for the technology of its day, but it grew increasingly complex to cope as the technology evolved. Same is true of every GUI. They don’t scale, or evolve gracefully. That’s why they keep needing to be redesigned. And that’s why a platform where the GUI layer is fully modular and replaceable, indeed optional (*cough* Linux, BSD *cough*), is the best- placed to cope with ongoing technological evolution in computing.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-12 16:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20250612161731.00003f61@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #68745 |
On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 21:49:40 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > > Classic MacOS *almost* nailed this, if only it hadn't been so quick > > to dismiss the keyboard and the command line (and were designed from > > the start for preemptive multitasking and memory protection...) > > It took extra-cost hardware to do that stuff back then. That’s why > the Unix boxes cost so much more. MMUs cost extra at the time, yes, but that changed pretty quickly - by the time the 68030 rolled out in 1987 it was built in to the CPU (and the Mac line adopted the '030 just a year later, with the Mac IIx.) Unfortunately, as Andy Hertzfeld has written, there were a couple parts of MacOS where they failed to "design ahead" for this; the transition to 32-bit addressing was more complicated than it should've been as a result, and I'm not sure if they ever did get memory protection going. The memory model, while forward-thinking in some respects, also imposed weird limitations on application heap size that never did get cleared up 'til the OSX transition finally obsoleted the whole thing. It *worked,* sure, but it could've been done a lot better from the get-go even without an MMU. https://folklore.org/Mea_Culpa.html?sort=date https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Mac_OS_memory_management As for pre-emptive multitasking, all you need for *that* is a timer interrupt, which the Mac had from the very start. They just didn't design with it even considered as a possibility, which made things clunkier than necessary when they finally did embrace multi-tasking later on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiFinder > The Classic MacOS GUI was purpose-built for the technology of its > day, but it grew increasingly complex to cope as the technology > evolved. Same is true of every GUI. They don’t scale, or evolve > gracefully. That’s why they keep needing to be redesigned. > > And that’s why a platform where the GUI layer is fully modular and > replaceable, indeed optional (*cough* Linux, BSD *cough*), is the > best- placed to cope with ongoing technological evolution in > computing. I can't fully agree with this. The GUI layer in an OS certainly ought to be modular enough that the rest of the system doesn't depend on it, or it becomes difficult to use in server environments (and tends to limit scripting/automation.) Classic MacOS certainly fell short on that front. But the *nix approach of treating it as a secondary (tertiary?) priority tends to lead to exactly what we saw in the *nix world, historically: a handful of disparate efforts that mostly tend to make it to "eh, good enough" and never quite achieve *niceness.* X deferring behavioral specifications to the WM/toolkit layer certainly made things more modular... ...but the downside to that is there's fundamentally no such thing as a *consistent* GUI experience in *nix-land; GTK programs work differently from Qt programs work differently from Motif programs work differently from the handful of programs that some lunatic really did write in raw Xlib calls, and unless you're one of the extremely vanilla users whose needs really *are* met by the default set of applications provided with GNOME or KDE, you just *won't* reach a point of never having to *think* about the differences. It's better to have the ability to choose than to not have it; but it's *nicer* to have and not *need* it. The *nix approach to the GUI, sadly, achieves the first aim but never does fulfill the second.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-13 01:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <102funf$3149j$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #68750 |
On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:17:31 -0700, John Ames wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 21:49:40 -0000 (UTC) > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > >> > Classic MacOS *almost* nailed this, if only it hadn't been so quick >> > to dismiss the keyboard and the command line (and were designed from >> > the start for preemptive multitasking and memory protection...) >> >> It took extra-cost hardware to do that stuff back then. That’s why >> the Unix boxes cost so much more. > > MMUs cost extra at the time, yes, but that changed pretty quickly - by > the time the 68030 rolled out in 1987 it was built in to the CPU (and > the Mac line adopted the '030 just a year later, with the Mac IIx.) Which, if you remember, was not exactly a cheap machine. (I had an original-model Mac II on my desk in 1987. I thought it was the most wonderful machine in the world.) > Unfortunately, as Andy Hertzfeld has written, there were a couple parts > of MacOS where they failed to "design ahead" for this; the transition > to 32-bit addressing was more complicated than it should've been as a > result, and I'm not sure if they ever did get memory protection going. Not in classic MacOS, no. But remember the transition to “32-bit clean” operation was pretty much done by 1990, just 3 years after the original Mac II, and involved very little change to MacOS APIs. Contrast this with the 16-to-32-bit transition in the Microsoft-compatible x86 world, which took about a decade *after* the first 80386-based machine started shipping. And required an all new “Win32” API for writing programs. And which came in subtly-incompatible variants for Windows NT versus old-style Windows. > The memory model, while forward-thinking in some respects, also imposed > weird limitations on application heap size that never did get cleared > up 'til the OSX transition finally obsoleted the whole thing. Application heaps had to be a fixed size. To change the size, you had to quit the app, set the new size (conveniently accessible in the Finder’s “Get Info” dialog) and launch it again. There was a “temporary memory” API available to get around this, but that only allowed for relocatable memory blocks. I got around this by doing allocation of nonrelocatable blocks in the system heap, which was dynamically resizable and so avoided the need to keep reconfiguring the application heap size in my app. The downsides were 1) you had to remember to free up the memory before quitting the app, otherwise it would stay allocated, and 2) the system heap was not pageable on PowerPC machines. But I don’t think anybody really wanted to put up with memory paging on their PowerPC Macs anyway ... > As for pre-emptive multitasking, all you need for *that* is a timer > interrupt, which the Mac had from the very start. One thing the Mac did have from the beginning was asynchronous, interrupt- driven I/O. Oddly, the file-access part of this worked with floppies from the beginning, but SCSI hard drives had to wait until SCSI Manager 4.3, introduced in 1993, to get the full benefits of it. >> The Classic MacOS GUI was purpose-built for the technology of its >> day, but it grew increasingly complex to cope as the technology >> evolved. Same is true of every GUI. They don’t scale, or evolve >> gracefully. That’s why they keep needing to be redesigned. >> >> And that’s why a platform where the GUI layer is fully modular and >> replaceable, indeed optional (*cough* Linux, BSD *cough*), is the >> best- placed to cope with ongoing technological evolution in >> computing. > > I can't fully agree with this. The GUI layer in an OS certainly ought > to be modular enough that the rest of the system doesn't depend on it, > or it becomes difficult to use in server environments (and tends to > limit scripting/automation.) Classic MacOS certainly fell short on that > front. > > But the *nix approach of treating it as a secondary (tertiary?) priority > tends to lead to exactly what we saw in the *nix world, historically: a > handful of disparate efforts that mostly tend to make it to "eh, good > enough" and never quite achieve *niceness.* Where is there a GUI that has achieved “niceness”? It’s just that some companies have bigger publicity budgets than others, to tell everyone how wonderful they are. Consider Microsoft’s “Aero Glass” effort in Vista, which the *nix world could easily match--even outshine--at much lower hardware cost, to the point where Microsoft had to abandon its approach and try to convince everyone that translucency and other 3D effects weren’t all that fashionable anyway, while we still have that available in the *nix world. > ...but the downside to that is there's fundamentally no such thing as a > *consistent* GUI experience in *nix-land ... You either have choice or you don’t. There’s no third way about it. Well, there is GNOME, which some people stick with and complain about, as though other choices did not exist ... > It's better to have the ability to choose than to not have it; but it's > *nicer* to have and not *need* it. That isn’t how freedom of choice works. > The *nix approach to the GUI, sadly, achieves the first aim but never > does fulfill the second. Where is there, in real life, a situation that gives you both?
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-20 10:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20250620103703.00004ee7@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #68755 |
On Fri, 13 Jun 2025 01:26:07 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > > MMUs cost extra at the time, yes, but that changed pretty quickly - > > by the time the 68030 rolled out in 1987 it was built in to the CPU > > (and the Mac line adopted the '030 just a year later, with the Mac > > IIx.) > > Which, if you remember, was not exactly a cheap machine. > > (I had an original-model Mac II on my desk in 1987. I thought it was > the most wonderful machine in the world.) Not for the consumer market, no - though it *was* a good deal cheaper ($7.8k) than a Sun 3/60FC ($11.7k) or an HP 9000/360 ($14.4k!) than contemporary 030-based *nix workstations (comparing across the diskless versions. But the point was more that, had a couple early mistakes not been made, it would've been much more feasible to incorporate memory protection into the OS when advances in CPU design *did* make it viable for consumer computers (and the SE/30 followed only a couple years later - not their cheapest offering at the time, but about half the price of a IIx...) (And yes, the Mac II line was - apart from the last few models - quite nice. My first computer was a IIcx my dad got secondhand from the community college where he worked; still have fond memories of that thing.) > But remember the transition to “32-bit clean” operation was pretty > much done by 1990, just 3 years after the original Mac II, and > involved very little change to MacOS APIs. Contrast this with the > 16-to-32-bit transition in the Microsoft-compatible x86 world, which > took about a decade *after* the first 80386-based machine started > shipping. For sure - the decision to use a natively 32-bit architecture from the get-go paid off in the long run. > > But the *nix approach of treating it as a secondary (tertiary?) > > priority tends to lead to exactly what we saw in the *nix world, > > historically: a handful of disparate efforts that mostly tend to > > make it to "eh, good enough" and never quite achieve *niceness.* > > Where is there a GUI that has achieved “niceness”? It’s just that > some companies have bigger publicity budgets than others, to tell > everyone how wonderful they are. Consider Microsoft’s “Aero Glass” > effort in Vista, which the *nix world could easily match--even > outshine--at much lower hardware cost, to the point where Microsoft > had to abandon its approach and try to convince everyone that > translucency and other 3D effects weren’t all that fashionable > anyway, while we still have that available in the *nix world. My use of "niceness" isn't meant to imply surface glitz or fancy FX; for myself, I actually prefer *not* to have those things, and it's a source of consternation to me when they can't be turned off. What I'm referring to is polish in design & craftsmanship rather than straight eye-candy - that things are both aesthetically pleasing* and well- engineered from a UX standpoint; that they're easy on the eye, but the visuals convey useful information; that they behave intuitively and consistently; that the pieces fit into a unified whole. * (Which is *not* the same thing as "flashy & computationally expensive to render;" there can be real beauty in simplicity, but most GUI design seems to fall squarely into either the indiscriminate-flash-'n-dazzle or starkly-Brutalist camps.) Which is, admittedly, hard to quantify - there's art to it as well as science, and it's more of a "know it when I see it" thing, except that I hardly ever see it, and mostly in approximation. Apple and the Mac team made a real effort to achieve both aesthetic quality and usability early on, and to communicate their design principles to third-party developers; MS in the Win3.x era did as well, but less adroitly, and with less success in getting third-parties to follow suit. But despite their good points, these left things to be desired - MS's GUI design, even after the 3.x revamp, was never as pleasing as Apple's, and Explorer didn't *begin* to be useful as a file manager 'til Windows 95, while Apple was too eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater wrt. keyboard/CLI functionality. (Both systems also had their share of issues "under the hood," but that's a separate matter.) Meanwhile, the Unix world for the most part* never even got that far; early X desktops were little more than window managers for arranging terminals, and the handful of Xlib/Motif alternatives to Mac/Windows GUI components were ugly and clunky by comparison. (Well, xfe is a more useful file manager than pre-95 Explorer, but that's not saying much.) And when the vendors decided to standardize, the result was CDE, which was sort of the metaphorical equivalent of a Trabant, without the charm. * (IRIX is pretty nearly the sole exception, as its bread & butter was in the upper end of digital art & multimedia applications and Apple basically owned the entire rest of that space; they *had* to compete. Sadly, Magic Desktop never really caught on outside that ecosystem. NeXTSTEP was also a fairly valiant attempt, but God help me do I hate Miller columns; and the segregation of GUI-land entities from under- lying *nix ones that drives me up the wall with OSX began at NeXT. IRIX never 100% solved that problem either, but they didn't try to pretend it wasn't there.) And then the whole damn personal-computer industry got sidetracked into an ugly and counterproductive obsession with skeumorphism in the late '90s; and while the fad passed, the fallout lingered. That was also just in time for tablets to take off - which *would've* been a totally unrelated matter, if it weren't for MS's obsession with catching up to Apple (when they and Google had already defined, surveyed, drawn up the boundaries, and filed the damn *charter* on the space) leading them off on a long and hilariously fruitless quest to vivisect Windows into some kind of horrifying Fiji mermaid of a hybrid desktop/tablet OS, the end result of which was that they forgot everything they ever *did* learn about GUI design for personal computers. (Satya firing practically the entire old guard *probably* didn't help.) So, well...no, there is no specific example I can point to and go "there, *that!*" - if there was, I'd be using it. The closest real-life approximation I can cite is Mac System 7/7.5 - the most pleasant and consistent GUI environment I've ever encountered - but even that has its issues, as previously noted. Other systems exhibit good ideas of their own (I like BeOS's treatment of tabs as an integral part of the desktop experience, though the implementation could be less clunky,) but "niceness" is mostly something glimpsed in frustrating little twinkles that catch the attention and stir the heart amid a present day that is, by and large, a great oceanic garbage heap of churning not-particularly- niceness. But I *don't* believe that it's some unachievable Platonic ideal; every problem I have with extant systems seems very much like a solvable one, if only they weren't too married to legacy considerations to adopt a solution. If I had infinite time and/or no hobbies that were more important to me, I suppose I could try to create such a thing myself - but I am, tragically, a mortal with way too much on my plate as it is.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-21 07:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1035m0l$u0ib$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #68950 |
On Fri, 20 Jun 2025 10:37:03 -0700, John Ames wrote: > Meanwhile, the Unix world for the most part* never even got that far; > early X desktops were little more than window managers for arranging > terminals, and the handful of Xlib/Motif alternatives to Mac/Windows > GUI components were ugly and clunky by comparison. (Well, xfe is a more > useful file manager than pre-95 Explorer, but that's not saying much.) > And when the vendors decided to standardize, the result was CDE, which > was sort of the metaphorical equivalent of a Trabant, without the charm. Interesting, because it was CDE/MOTIF that pioneered the idea of multiple virtual desktops. Which, if you remember, was commonplace in the *nix/ Linux world for many years, before Microsoft and Apple discovered it and tried retrofitting it (badly) onto their own GUIs. > * (IRIX is pretty nearly the sole exception, as its bread & butter was > in the upper end of digital art & multimedia applications ... But SGI were precisely an example of the sort of “flashy & computationally expensive to render” thing you were criticizing, were they not? They did a full animated 3D desktop, with 3D-rendered icons flying around all over the place, just because they could. > NeXTSTEP was also a fairly valiant attempt, but God help me do I hate > Miller columns; and the segregation of GUI-land entities from under- > lying *nix ones that drives me up the wall with OSX began at NeXT. Is that supposed to be different from the idea that functionality should be available in scriptable/command line tools, with the GUI mostly just a front end to those tools? Because that is a great way to organize things. > And then the whole damn personal-computer industry got sidetracked into > an ugly and counterproductive obsession with skeumorphism in the late > '90s ... This is why, in the *nix world, we treasure our modularity, and kept the separate layering of the whole X11 system, even while it seemed clunky compared to the tight integration of GUI and OS kernel that Apple and Microsoft (and others, like Be as well, I think) were going for. And history has proven that *nix approach to be the right way to do things. Remember the “Unix philosophy” (perhaps nowadays better retitled the “Linx philosophy” these days): the kernel and the userland core should concentrate on providing mechanisms, not policy; let the users/admins use those mechanisms however they like, to implement whatever policies they like. And that goes for the GUI as well.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-23 14:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20250623142902.00001ef8@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #68979 |
On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 07:12:21 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > Interesting, because it was CDE/MOTIF that pioneered the idea of > multiple virtual desktops. Which, if you remember, was commonplace in > the *nix/ Linux world for many years, before Microsoft and Apple > discovered it and tried retrofitting it (badly) onto their own GUIs. Per Wiki "virtual desktops" were independently invented by a couple parties in the mid-'80s and were introduced to the broader *nix world by swm in '89, well before CDE rolled out. Certainly CDE may have helped to popularize it. (No argument about the quality of MS/Apple's implementations, though.) The larger point, however, was that compared to classic MacOS or even Win3.x, CDE was clunky and awkward and made no obvious case for itself. The Trabant comparison was a cheeky way to sum up the whole East Bloc aesthetic of the thing: "Sie möchten eine GUI? Hier ist eine GUI. Nein, es besteht kein Bedarf für eine bessere GUI." > But SGI were precisely an example of the sort of “flashy & > computationally expensive to render” thing you were criticizing, were > they not? They did a full animated 3D desktop, with 3D-rendered icons > flying around all over the place, just because they could. As a novelty, yes (3D hardware was their big thing, what can you say.) But I don't think anybody seriously meant that to be more than a proof- of-concept - the normal IRIX desktop environment had nothing to do with it, being a nicely-implemented but entirely conventional WIMP GUI based around a modified mwm: http://toastytech.com/guis/irix.html > > NeXTSTEP was also a fairly valiant attempt, but God help me do I > > hate Miller columns; and the segregation of GUI-land entities from > > underlying *nix ones that drives me up the wall with OSX began at > > NeXT. > > Is that supposed to be different from the idea that functionality > should be available in scriptable/command line tools, with the GUI > mostly just a front end to those tools? Because that is a great way > to organize things. Yes, that's a different thing; perhaps I could've been clearer. What I'm referring to is the way that NeXTSTEP/OSX is just sort of this entirely different thing plopped on top of an underlying *nix system. Sure, BSD-land is *there* and files are more or less files (assuming that the formats are standard,) but there's little commonality between them: GUI-land applications are written in a different language with a different set of APIs and mostly don't interact with BSD-land stuff at all beyond the under-the-hood stuff that implements the XYZ Kit/Cocoa API layer. It's neither fish nor fowl. > And history has proven that *nix approach to be the right way to do > things. I wouldn't agree that it has, at least wrt. integration of a GUI layer into operating-system design. Certainly it *works,* but it could be done much better.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-24 00:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <103cqjq$1ip4g$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #69055 |
On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 14:29:02 -0700, John Ames wrote: > The larger point, however, was that compared to classic MacOS or even > Win3.x, CDE was clunky and awkward and made no obvious case for itself. I used it on DEC Alphas for a few years (after being a Mac man before), and I didn’t find that at all. It was much cleaner in its layout than Windows 3.x, or even Windows 9x, for that matter. This was the point where Apple was trying to incorporate greyscale backgrounds into (old) MacOS, to keep up with the fashion among the rest of the computing world. They even toyed with some theming functionality in beta versions of MacOS 8.5, but all that was removed before release. (Though the pre-release themes could still be found, and installed on the release system, if you knew where to find them, and were brave enough ...) > On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 07:12:21 -0000 (UTC) > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> >> But SGI were precisely an example of the sort of “flashy & >> computationally expensive to render” thing you were criticizing, were >> they not? They did a full animated 3D desktop, with 3D-rendered icons >> flying around all over the place, just because they could. > > As a novelty, yes (3D hardware was their big thing, what can you say.) > But I don't think anybody seriously meant that to be more than a proof- > of-concept - the normal IRIX desktop environment had nothing to do with > it, being a nicely-implemented but entirely conventional WIMP GUI based > around a modified mwm: http://toastytech.com/guis/irix.html But the 3D interface did ship, did it not. Sun was also showing off their “Project Looking Glass”. And then there was Windows Vista ... > What I'm referring to is the way that NeXTSTEP/OSX is just sort of this > entirely different thing plopped on top of an underlying *nix system. OSX is not. That GUI is very much bound into the kernel -- contrary to the modularity tradition of *nix systems. Given the origin of OSX in NextSTEP, I suspect NeXTSTEP had it bound in as well. Which is why a separate port (OpenSTEP) was needed to work on conventional X11-based *nix GUIs. > Sure, BSD-land is *there* and files are more or less files (assuming > that the formats are standard,) but there's little commonality between > them: GUI-land applications are written in a different language with a > different set of APIs and mostly don't interact with BSD-land stuff at > all beyond the under-the-hood stuff that implements the XYZ Kit/Cocoa > API layer. It's neither fish nor fowl. Sun had at least some GUI apps (the ones with names ending in “tool”, as I recall) that were primarily front ends onto command-line/scriptable programs. E.g. “mailtool” was a GUI on top of mail functions that were also accessible via the command line. That fits in better with the modularity idea. That modularity idea did somewhat get pushed into the shadows during the 1990s. But it survives and thrives today. Sun also created a high-level IPC system, specifically oriented towards use in GUI sessions, called “ToolTalk”. Kind of an answer to Apple’s AppleScript/AppleEvents. Today we have D-Bus on *nix systems, or at least those that subscribe to FreeDesktop.org conventions. I used to be an AppleScript enthusiast, but gradually realized how clunky it was as I got exposed to alternatives. >> And history has proven that *nix approach to be the right way to do >> things. > > I wouldn't agree that it has, at least wrt. integration of a GUI layer > into operating-system design. The idea that the GUI should be a separate modular, replaceable layer lives on in the open-source *nix world. And it demonstrates its superiority and versatility over the weld-it-into-the kernel approach that Apple and Microsoft have both taken. > Certainly it *works,* but it could be done much better. Tell us, or show us, how you would do it.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-01 14:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20250701141023.00003c97@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #69060 |
On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 00:13:46 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > >> But SGI were precisely an example of the sort of “flashy & > >> computationally expensive to render” thing you were criticizing, > >> were they not? They did a full animated 3D desktop, with > >> 3D-rendered icons flying around all over the place, just because > >> they could. > > > > As a novelty, yes (3D hardware was their big thing, what can you > > say.) But I don't think anybody seriously meant that to be more > > than a proof- of-concept - the normal IRIX desktop environment had > > nothing to do with it, being a nicely-implemented but entirely > > conventional WIMP GUI based around a modified > > mwm: http://toastytech.com/guis/irix.html > > But the 3D interface did ship, did it not. Sun was also showing off > their “Project Looking Glass”. I don't care *what* people offer as a novelty geegaw as long as it doesn't get in the way of the regular workflow. FSN is ludicrous from a usability standpoint, but it was never anything you *had* to deal with; compared to genuine workflow malpractice like the Office 2007 Playskool activity-center bar or GTK3's habit of pointing file-open/save dialogs to a nebulous liminal space where files can neither be opened nor saved and there's nothing but links to places where the dev team thinks you *might* like to keep files, it'd be silly to get mad over. > > What I'm referring to is the way that NeXTSTEP/OSX is just sort of > > this entirely different thing plopped on top of an underlying *nix > > system. > > OSX is not. That GUI is very much bound into the kernel -- contrary > to the modularity tradition of *nix systems. I'm not talking about implementation details on the kernel level; I'm talking about the way that nothing in GUI-land interacts meaningfully with the traditional *nix toolset, and vice versa. It's a two-headed dog sort of thing, only one dog is written in Objective-C and Swift. > > Certainly it *works,* but it could be done much better. > > Tell us, or show us, how you would do it. Someday when I have a pile of free time and no other hobby projects that are more important to me, sure!
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-02 00:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1041t1s$349i3$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #69258 |
On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 14:10:23 -0700, John Ames wrote: > I don't care *what* people offer as a novelty geegaw as long as it > doesn't get in the way of the regular workflow. Previously you seemed to have an objection to such things existing in the first place. So that’s progress, at least. > I'm not talking about implementation details on the kernel level; I'm > talking about the way that nothing in GUI-land interacts meaningfully > with the traditional *nix toolset, and vice versa. It's a two-headed dog > sort of thing, only one dog is written in Objective-C and Swift. That’s a limitation of platforms like those from Apple and Microsoft, where the GUI is inextricably bound into the OS kernel at quite a low level. This is contrary to the *nix philosophy. See how many Linux GUI tools, for example, are just front ends to CLI/scriptable back ends -- or at least offer the option to run in CLI/scriptable mode. This way you can easily automate functions by directly talking to the CLI/script interface, instead of trying to pull puppet strings in the GUI via some clumsy fake- mouse-clicks-and-keystrokes GUI automation tool.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-02 01:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <DI%8Q.83510$D1Ob.14865@fx36.iad> |
| In reply to | #69261 |
On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 14:10:23 -0700, John Ames wrote: > >> I don't care *what* people offer as a novelty geegaw as long as >> it doesn't get in the way of the regular workflow. > > Previously you seemed to have an objection to such things existing > in the first place. So that’s progress, at least. Most of us don't object to these things existing. We just object to being forced to use them. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell. / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-02 01:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10421sd$35564$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #69263 |
On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 01:13:07 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > >> On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 14:10:23 -0700, John Ames wrote: >> >>> I don't care *what* people offer as a novelty geegaw as long as it >>> doesn't get in the way of the regular workflow. >> >> Previously you seemed to have an objection to such things existing in >> the first place. So that’s progress, at least. > > Most of us don't object to these things existing. > We just object to being forced to use them. Thankfully, Free Software/Open Source is all about choice.
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-02 09:25 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <1042qem$3dil1$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #69266 |
On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 01:13:07 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 14:10:23 -0700, John Ames wrote: >>> >>>> I don't care *what* people offer as a novelty geegaw as long as it >>>> doesn't get in the way of the regular workflow. >>> >>> Previously you seemed to have an objection to such things existing in >>> the first place. So that’s progress, at least. >> >> Most of us don't object to these things existing. >> We just object to being forced to use them. > > Thankfully, Free Software/Open Source is all about choice. (... unless/until it involves a grammatical symbol in Freedesktop stuff?) Do you realize how close this can be to Microsoft claiming they don't have a monopoly because there are other systems? In practice, that there's that choice in some corner doesn't change in any way the forces of peer-pressure and vendor-locking arising from Microsoft and friends, especially if in practice you're still forced to do things their way. That's what it sounds like when you try to dismiss criticism of forcing something in FLOSS software with "but there's choice". -- Nuno Silva
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| From | Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-02 11:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn106a7ir.1hbs.boraxman@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #69274 |
On 2025-07-02, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote: > On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > >> On Wed, 02 Jul 2025 01:13:07 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> >>> On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2025 14:10:23 -0700, John Ames wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't care *what* people offer as a novelty geegaw as long as it >>>>> doesn't get in the way of the regular workflow. >>>> >>>> Previously you seemed to have an objection to such things existing in >>>> the first place. So that’s progress, at least. >>> >>> Most of us don't object to these things existing. >>> We just object to being forced to use them. >> >> Thankfully, Free Software/Open Source is all about choice. > > (... unless/until it involves a grammatical symbol in Freedesktop > stuff?) > > Do you realize how close this can be to Microsoft claiming they don't > have a monopoly because there are other systems? In practice, that > there's that choice in some corner doesn't change in any way the forces > of peer-pressure and vendor-locking arising from Microsoft and friends, > especially if in practice you're still forced to do things their way. > > That's what it sounds like when you try to dismiss criticism of forcing > something in FLOSS software with "but there's choice". > You are right, there has always been an alternative to using Microsoft. You could always choose not to use a computer. It could be argued that there is choice in everything, as long as you are willing to face the consequences of your choice. A specious argument, and a useless one, but one nevertheless passed on. Anyone who truly does respect freedom, and I don't think Lawrence comes across as such, knows that having a choice is not enough, as that always exists, but that there are options, viable paths where people can exercise their freedom of choice on a somewhat equal footing. The licence alone doesn't convey freedom, it is the autonomy and agency the software gives the user. Does the software allow the user to configure it, to piece it together with other software? Does it push the developers vision, or does it give the user the freedom to create their vision? Two examples of software which give the user true freedom, are Emacs and FVWM. FVWM from my experience does not impose any vision on the user, but rather, allows the user to configure it as they see fit, and provides the documentation to do so. The user is empowered. Regarding Emacs, Protesilaos Stavrou says it best in this video. This is a good description of Emacs, but also about software freedom, taking a different view than the usual "freedom to copy and modify" argument used by most Free Software advcates. https://protesilaos.com/codelog/2022-03-22-libreplanet-emacs-living-freedom/
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-02 08:35 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <1043936$3gg9t$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #69278 |
Borax Man wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
> Two examples of software which give the user true freedom, are Emacs and
> FVWM. FVWM from my experience does not impose any vision on the user,
> but rather, allows the user to configure it as they see fit, and
> provides the documentation to do so. The user is empowered.
>
> Regarding Emacs, Protesilaos Stavrou says it best in this video. This
> is a good description of Emacs, but also about software freedom, taking
> a different view than the usual "freedom to copy and modify" argument
> used by most Free Software advcates.
>
> https://protesilaos.com/codelog/2022-03-22-libreplanet-emacs-living-freedom/
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcL86UpqZc&t=241s>
Interview with an Emacs Enthusiast [Colorized]
"I used to spend hours trying to get the image on the right
page. Now I use org-mode LaTeX and just accept that it's
impossible." Im dying.
--
The mirror sees the man as beautiful, the mirror loves the man; another
mirror sees the man as frightful and hates him; and it is always the same
being who produces the impressions.
-- Marquis D. A. F. de Sade
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-02 23:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1044f8n$3p5ha$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #69278 |
On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 11:56:11 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > Anyone who truly does respect freedom, and I don't think Lawrence comes > across as such, knows that having a choice is not enough, as that always > exists, but that there are options, viable paths where people can > exercise their freedom of choice on a somewhat equal footing. In other words, it’s only “freedom” if you can run to someone who will hold your hand and tell you what choice to make? > The licence alone doesn't convey freedom, it is the autonomy and agency > the software gives the user. Does the software allow the user to > configure it, to piece it together with other software? The *nix philosophy is “mechanism, not policy”. It lets you make your own choices, it doesn’t dictate choices to you. Free software does indeed follow this philosophy. But then you get people complaining that exercising that choice is too hard, because it takes intellectual effort to understand the choices available to you. > Does it push the developers vision, or does it give the user the > freedom to create their vision? “Create their vision” is what the PR folk working for proprietary companies like to say, isn’t it: you can “create your vision” with Adobe products, but you have to use them the Adobe way. Why would you want to do anything different? We know best, just give us your money and stop trying to think for yourself.
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| From | Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-03 11:37 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn106cqsh.8k4.boraxman@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #69291 |
On 2025-07-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jul 2025 11:56:11 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> Anyone who truly does respect freedom, and I don't think Lawrence comes >> across as such, knows that having a choice is not enough, as that always >> exists, but that there are options, viable paths where people can >> exercise their freedom of choice on a somewhat equal footing. > > In other words, it’s only “freedom” if you can run to someone who will > hold your hand and tell you what choice to make? > >> The licence alone doesn't convey freedom, it is the autonomy and agency >> the software gives the user. Does the software allow the user to >> configure it, to piece it together with other software? > > The *nix philosophy is “mechanism, not policy”. It lets you make your own > choices, it doesn’t dictate choices to you. Free software does indeed > follow this philosophy. But then you get people complaining that > exercising that choice is too hard, because it takes intellectual effort > to understand the choices available to you. > >> Does it push the developers vision, or does it give the user the >> freedom to create their vision? > > “Create their vision” is what the PR folk working for proprietary > companies like to say, isn’t it: you can “create your vision” with Adobe > products, but you have to use them the Adobe way. Why would you want to do > anything different? We know best, just give us your money and stop trying > to think for yourself. As I said in another thread, there was a coincidence that Free Software was interlinked with the Unix philosophy because of people who has shared interest in both. The GNU project is the core example, as is the Linux kernel.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-03 19:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mco2v5F2dvgU5@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #69305 |
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 11:37:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > As I said in another thread, there was a coincidence that Free Software > was interlinked with the Unix philosophy because of people who has > shared interest in both. The GNU project is the core example, as is the > Linux kernel. https://github.com/PSCSeifu/TheLibrary/blob/master/ The%20Art%20of%20Unix%20Programming%20_Eric%20Steven%20Raymond.pdf Raymond and Parens were both involved in the founding of OSI. There are similarities to the FSF, without Stallman's limitations on free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Source_Definition
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| From | Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-05 10:32 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <104arf4$1d2v4$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #69318 |
On 2025-07-03, rbowman wrote: > > Raymond and Parens were both involved in the founding of OSI. There are > similarities to the FSF, without Stallman's limitations on free. Look, wording matters, and "limitations" is really subjective here and the key part of the debate, what you describe as "limitations" are, to others "protections". And IIRC wasn't there also some red scare involved, in which some saw "open source" as needed because companies might be scared by something that for some reason "looks [or sounds] communist"? (Then there's the Microsoft level of describing these protections as "cancer", when what they're criticizing is actually *Copyright*, not the GPL.) -- Nuno Silva
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-07-05 19:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mctbioF2dvgU15@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #69348 |
On Sat, 05 Jul 2025 10:32:20 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote: > On 2025-07-03, rbowman wrote: >> >> Raymond and Parens were both involved in the founding of OSI. There are >> similarities to the FSF, without Stallman's limitations on free. > > Look, wording matters, and "limitations" is really subjective here and > the key part of the debate, what you describe as "limitations" are, to > others "protections". > > And IIRC wasn't there also some red scare involved, in which some saw > "open source" as needed because companies might be scared by something > that for some reason "looks [or sounds] communist"? > > (Then there's the Microsoft level of describing these protections as > "cancer", when what they're criticizing is actually *Copyright*, not the > GPL.) Yes, the GPL offered protections against the use in any commercial products. As an example years ago I found a bug in the handling of sigsetjmp in the Expect library. I fixed it and submitted the patch to Don Libes where it was incorporated in the next release. I could do that because Expect was in the public domain. If it was GPL I wouldn't have been using it in the first place. Would professional programmers submit patches to GPLd software if they were using it? I don't know. However the trend today is toward permissive licenses, MIT, Apache, No-clause BSD, and so forth. https://angular.dev/license "Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:" Compare that to Stallman's legalistic bullshit. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
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