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Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why?

From	John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why?
Date	2025-06-23 14:29 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<20250623142902.00001ef8@gmail.com> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <102fi1k$2u1dt$4@dont-email.me> <20250612161731.00003f61@gmail.com> <102funf$3149j$4@dont-email.me> <20250620103703.00004ee7@gmail.com> <1035m0l$u0ib$5@dont-email.me>

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On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 07:12:21 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> Interesting, because it was CDE/MOTIF that pioneered the idea of
> multiple virtual desktops. Which, if you remember, was commonplace in
> the *nix/ Linux world for many years, before Microsoft and Apple
> discovered it and tried retrofitting it (badly) onto their own GUIs.

Per Wiki "virtual desktops" were independently invented by a couple
parties in the mid-'80s and were introduced to the broader *nix world by
swm in '89, well before CDE rolled out. Certainly CDE may have helped
to popularize it.

(No argument about the quality of MS/Apple's implementations, though.)

The larger point, however, was that compared to classic MacOS or even
Win3.x, CDE was clunky and awkward and made no obvious case for itself.
The Trabant comparison was a cheeky way to sum up the whole East Bloc
aesthetic of the thing: "Sie möchten eine GUI? Hier ist eine GUI. Nein,
es besteht kein Bedarf für eine bessere GUI."

> But SGI were precisely an example of the sort of “flashy &
> computationally expensive to render” thing you were criticizing, were
> they not? They did a full animated 3D desktop, with 3D-rendered icons
> flying around all over the place, just because they could.

As a novelty, yes (3D hardware was their big thing, what can you say.)
But I don't think anybody seriously meant that to be more than a proof-
of-concept - the normal IRIX desktop environment had nothing to do with
it, being a nicely-implemented but entirely conventional WIMP GUI based
around a modified mwm: http://toastytech.com/guis/irix.html

> > NeXTSTEP was also a fairly valiant attempt, but God help me do I
> > hate Miller columns; and the segregation of GUI-land entities from
> > underlying *nix ones that drives me up the wall with OSX began at
> > NeXT.  
> 
> Is that supposed to be different from the idea that functionality
> should be available in scriptable/command line tools, with the GUI
> mostly just a front end to those tools? Because that is a great way
> to organize things.

Yes, that's a different thing; perhaps I could've been clearer. What
I'm referring to is the way that NeXTSTEP/OSX is just sort of this
entirely different thing plopped on top of an underlying *nix system.
Sure, BSD-land is *there* and files are more or less files (assuming
that the formats are standard,) but there's little commonality between
them: GUI-land applications are written in a different language with a
different set of APIs and mostly don't interact with BSD-land stuff at
all beyond the under-the-hood stuff that implements the XYZ Kit/Cocoa
API layer. It's neither fish nor fowl.

> And history has proven that *nix approach to be the right way to do
> things.

I wouldn't agree that it has, at least wrt. integration of a GUI layer
into operating-system design. Certainly it *works,* but it could be
done much better.

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Thread

Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood <phaywood@alphalink.com.au> - 2025-06-10 12:43 +1000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:42 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 03:34 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 12:12 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 13:51 +0100
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-11 17:04 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:09 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:48 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-14 08:34 +0100
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:43 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 08:47 -0700
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-18 05:20 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 00:10 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-12 02:51 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:03 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 12:12 +0100
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@nospam.com.ii> - 2025-06-12 11:31 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-12 08:37 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:23 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 21:49 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-12 16:17 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-13 01:26 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-20 10:37 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-21 07:12 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-23 14:29 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-24 00:13 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-01 14:10 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 00:04 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-02 01:13 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 01:26 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-02 09:25 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-07-02 11:56 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-07-02 08:35 -0400
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 23:27 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-07-03 11:37 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-03 19:11 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 10:32 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 19:09 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:05 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-10 00:50 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-10 05:47 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-10 09:35 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-07-11 11:40 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:04 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-02 07:43 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-02 23:21 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-03 08:26 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Harold Stevens <wookie@aspen.localdomain> - 2025-07-03 12:17 -0500
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 10:41 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-05 10:17 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 11:19 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 16:07 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 16:23 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 16:25 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 13:35 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 21:59 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 14:51 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 02:46 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 22:40 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:09 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-06 10:36 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 14:17 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-06 10:52 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-11 19:03 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-11 21:03 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-11 21:33 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-12 14:30 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 04:50 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-12 23:29 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 07:01 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-13 16:45 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 19:22 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-13 07:32 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-13 12:47 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-07-13 17:00 +0000
                DVD-Video DRM (was: Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why?) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-13 22:49 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-13 16:45 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-13 10:03 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-13 12:15 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) - 2025-07-13 12:00 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 19:36 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-13 21:49 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-13 16:45 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-13 19:40 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-12 10:54 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-07-12 08:46 -0400
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 02:52 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-07 09:07 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 22:00 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-07 09:45 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-07 18:26 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-07 10:42 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-07 20:34 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-07 18:56 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-05 19:12 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:14 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 12:56 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-07 02:47 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 18:37 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 13:44 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-05 22:44 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 16:38 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-07-06 04:46 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 06:05 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:09 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:00 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 23:03 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-04 21:34 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 09:45 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 06:07 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-06 09:14 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 21:35 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-06 10:41 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-02 09:31 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-03 13:04 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-04 00:48 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-04 08:21 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-04 23:29 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 10:05 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 22:57 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-07-07 10:20 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Harold Stevens <wookie@aspen.localdomain> - 2025-07-07 12:53 -0500
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-09 22:58 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-06-21 10:35 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-21 21:43 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-23 11:49 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:57 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 08:43 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-16 23:26 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-07-04 21:19 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-07-05 09:42 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-07-05 21:37 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-07-05 14:53 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-07-06 06:08 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 21:45 +0000

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