Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why?

From	Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why?
Date	2025-06-13 01:26 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<102funf$3149j$4@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <102ecnj$2l3qp$3@dont-email.me> <slrn104lejk.1cug.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> <20250612083705.000061fc@gmail.com> <102fi1k$2u1dt$4@dont-email.me> <20250612161731.00003f61@gmail.com>

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On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:17:31 -0700, John Ames wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 21:49:40 -0000 (UTC)
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> > Classic MacOS *almost* nailed this, if only it hadn't been so quick
>> > to dismiss the keyboard and the command line (and were designed from
>> > the start for preemptive multitasking and memory protection...)  
>> 
>> It took extra-cost hardware to do that stuff back then. That’s why
>> the Unix boxes cost so much more.
> 
> MMUs cost extra at the time, yes, but that changed pretty quickly - by
> the time the 68030 rolled out in 1987 it was built in to the CPU (and
> the Mac line adopted the '030 just a year later, with the Mac IIx.)

Which, if you remember, was not exactly a cheap machine.

(I had an original-model Mac II on my desk in 1987. I thought it was the 
most wonderful machine in the world.)

> Unfortunately, as Andy Hertzfeld has written, there were a couple parts
> of MacOS where they failed to "design ahead" for this; the transition
> to 32-bit addressing was more complicated than it should've been as a
> result, and I'm not sure if they ever did get memory protection going.

Not in classic MacOS, no.

But remember the transition to “32-bit clean” operation was pretty much 
done by 1990, just 3 years after the original Mac II, and involved very 
little change to MacOS APIs. Contrast this with the 16-to-32-bit 
transition in the Microsoft-compatible x86 world, which took about a 
decade *after* the first 80386-based machine started shipping. And 
required an all new “Win32” API for writing programs. And which came in 
subtly-incompatible variants for Windows NT versus old-style Windows.

> The memory model, while forward-thinking in some respects, also imposed
> weird limitations on application heap size that never did get cleared
> up 'til the OSX transition finally obsoleted the whole thing.

Application heaps had to be a fixed size. To change the size, you had to 
quit the app, set the new size (conveniently accessible in the Finder’s 
“Get Info” dialog) and launch it again.

There was a “temporary memory” API available to get around this, but that 
only allowed for relocatable memory blocks. I got around this by doing 
allocation of nonrelocatable blocks in the system heap, which was 
dynamically resizable and so avoided the need to keep reconfiguring the 
application heap size in my app.

The downsides were 1) you had to remember to free up the memory before 
quitting the app, otherwise it would stay allocated, and 2) the system 
heap was not pageable on PowerPC machines. But I don’t think anybody 
really wanted to put up with memory paging on their PowerPC Macs 
anyway ...

> As for pre-emptive multitasking, all you need for *that* is a timer
> interrupt, which the Mac had from the very start.

One thing the Mac did have from the beginning was asynchronous, interrupt-
driven I/O. Oddly, the file-access part of this worked with floppies from 
the beginning, but SCSI hard drives had to wait until SCSI Manager 4.3, 
introduced in 1993, to get the full benefits of it.

>> The Classic MacOS GUI was purpose-built for the technology of its
>> day, but it grew increasingly complex to cope as the technology
>> evolved. Same is true of every GUI. They don’t scale, or evolve
>> gracefully. That’s why they keep needing to be redesigned.
>> 
>> And that’s why a platform where the GUI layer is fully modular and 
>> replaceable, indeed optional (*cough* Linux, BSD *cough*), is the
>> best- placed to cope with ongoing technological evolution in
>> computing.
> 
> I can't fully agree with this. The GUI layer in an OS certainly ought
> to be modular enough that the rest of the system doesn't depend on it,
> or it becomes difficult to use in server environments (and tends to
> limit scripting/automation.) Classic MacOS certainly fell short on that
> front.
> 
> But the *nix approach of treating it as a secondary (tertiary?) priority
> tends to lead to exactly what we saw in the *nix world, historically: a
> handful of disparate efforts that mostly tend to make it to "eh, good
> enough" and never quite achieve *niceness.*

Where is there a GUI that has achieved “niceness”? It’s just that some 
companies have bigger publicity budgets than others, to tell everyone how 
wonderful they are. Consider Microsoft’s “Aero Glass” effort in Vista, 
which the *nix world could easily match--even outshine--at much lower 
hardware cost, to the point where Microsoft had to abandon its approach 
and try to convince everyone that translucency and other 3D effects 
weren’t all that fashionable anyway, while we still have that available in 
the *nix world.

> ...but the downside to that is there's fundamentally no such thing as a
> *consistent* GUI experience in *nix-land ...

You either have choice or you don’t. There’s no third way about it.

Well, there is GNOME, which some people stick with and complain about, as 
though other choices did not exist ...

> It's better to have the ability to choose than to not have it; but it's
> *nicer* to have and not *need* it.

That isn’t how freedom of choice works.

> The *nix approach to the GUI, sadly, achieves the first aim but never
> does fulfill the second.

Where is there, in real life, a situation that gives you both?

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What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-05 10:12 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-05 06:44 -0400
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  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-06-05 13:03 +0200
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-05 11:11 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-05 14:22 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Ralf Fassel <ralfixx@gmx.de> - 2025-06-05 17:16 +0200
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:54 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-06 14:43 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:31 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-07 02:44 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-05 21:36 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-05 15:51 +0200
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-05 14:58 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-05 16:11 +0100
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:06 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-09 08:51 -0400
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-06 15:37 +0200
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John McCue <jmccue@magnetar.jmcunx.com> - 2025-06-05 14:03 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2025-06-05 16:50 +0200
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:30 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2025-06-06 21:51 +0200
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-05 08:21 -0700
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-05 18:11 +0100
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-05 10:46 -0700
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 13:23 +0100
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-06 14:47 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-06 21:02 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:27 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-07 11:07 +0100
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-07 13:00 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-07 17:17 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-08 00:02 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-08 03:31 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 08:59 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 09:48 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 09:53 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 08:09 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-09 09:47 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:31 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-09 23:55 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-08 14:47 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-08 13:52 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-14 08:30 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-14 11:01 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-14 10:52 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-14 21:17 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-14 23:35 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 09:52 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-16 18:15 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-16 23:24 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-06-16 18:28 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-17 01:56 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-17 08:33 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-17 22:09 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-17 16:04 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-18 00:04 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-18 04:28 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-18 16:15 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-18 05:30 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-14 23:30 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-15 09:23 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-15 08:59 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:38 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 08:07 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-09 17:40 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-09 19:53 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-09 21:34 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:34 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-12 15:10 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-12 18:12 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 10:00 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:16 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-07 12:54 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John McCue <jmclnx@SPAMisBADgmail.com> - 2025-06-06 01:58 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-06-06 00:50 -0400
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:47 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 08:06 -0700
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:46 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 08:05 -0700
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:23 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 07:59 +0200
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-09 07:20 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 10:01 +0200
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 18:20 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-09 08:59 -0400
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-05 17:37 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-06-05 12:15 -0700
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2025-06-05 20:44 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:21 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-09 08:56 -0400
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 18:00 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-10 02:09 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 03:25 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-10 18:11 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:40 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 03:25 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2025-06-09 17:58 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:36 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-06-06 00:14 -0400
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Ian <gay@sfuu.ca> - 2025-06-05 22:05 -0700
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-06-06 07:10 +0100
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:39 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 08:12 -0700
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 20:18 +0100
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-06 21:02 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-07 03:23 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 04:42 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:19 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 07:09 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? xyz@eatspam.invalid (JCJ) - 2025-06-28 14:44 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-29 00:02 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.nospam> - 2025-06-30 10:40 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-06 19:29 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:23 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-07 10:57 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 12:28 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 09:38 -0700
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 18:13 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-10 02:09 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:40 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 10:25 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:26 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-10 07:45 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 16:55 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-10 15:43 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 09:12 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-11 13:03 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 13:01 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2025-06-11 18:36 +0300
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 17:11 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:37 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:21 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 22:27 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 03:25 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 09:24 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-11 13:04 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 17:29 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-11 17:46 -0400
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-12 02:39 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:51 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:22 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 09:13 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:46 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:56 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 03:43 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-11 07:54 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-12 14:33 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-06-12 11:27 -0400
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:20 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-12 18:26 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 12:04 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 17:15 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:16 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 12:34 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:58 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 11:57 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 00:08 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-06-06 12:57 +0100
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 13:26 +0100
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-06 14:53 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-06 18:46 +0200
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-06-06 18:18 +0100
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:16 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-06 19:37 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:14 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2025-06-06 08:29 +0300
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Jan van den Broek <balglaas@dds.nl> - 2025-06-06 08:01 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-06 11:33 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Jan van den Broek <balglaas@dds.nl> - 2025-06-07 11:03 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:11 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 07:06 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> - 2025-06-06 13:44 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-06 18:37 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:20 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 03:10 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 08:02 +0200
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:43 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 07:38 +0200
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 07:17 +0000
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood <phaywood@alphalink.com.au> - 2025-06-10 12:43 +1000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 23:42 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-11 03:34 +0000
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 12:12 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-11 13:51 +0100
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-06-11 17:04 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:09 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:48 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-14 08:34 +0100
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:43 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 08:47 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-18 05:20 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 00:10 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-12 02:51 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-12 11:03 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 12:12 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@nospam.com.ii> - 2025-06-12 11:31 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-12 08:37 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-12 17:23 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 21:49 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-12 16:17 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-13 01:26 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-20 10:37 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-21 07:12 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-23 14:29 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-24 00:13 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-06-21 10:35 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-21 21:43 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-23 11:49 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-14 19:57 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-16 08:43 -0700
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-16 23:26 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-12 21:45 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-06-06 17:58 +0200
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-06 18:48 +0200
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-06 17:08 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-06 10:47 -0700
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 01:09 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 09:03 -0700
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:43 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-06 18:28 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2025-06-06 18:50 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0100
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-07 03:30 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 01:06 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 08:03 +0200
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-06-09 02:49 -0400
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-09 10:02 +0200
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:57 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 09:02 -0700
          Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 22:48 +0000
            Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 07:41 +0200
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 10:17 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 11:28 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 13:01 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 18:13 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-06-10 12:39 +0200
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 11:57 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 12:04 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 13:18 +0100
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-10 12:59 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 18:04 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-11 00:15 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-11 12:08 +0000
                OT: ot crap - was: What Window Manager/Desktop....... Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> - 2025-06-11 17:14 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-11 00:14 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-13 01:00 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-13 01:26 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-13 03:27 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-13 20:50 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-13 23:34 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-11 00:13 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-10 17:59 +0000
              Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-06-10 14:34 +0000
                Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-06-10 18:48 +0100
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-09 07:15 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Chris Narkiewicz <hello@ezaquarii.com> - 2025-06-06 19:30 +0100
    Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 02:17 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-07 10:54 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-06-07 12:31 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-06-07 18:49 +0000
        Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 23:00 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-07 16:00 +0000
      Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-09 01:03 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-06-06 19:18 +0000
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-06-06 22:35 +0200
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2025-06-09 10:44 -0400
  Re: What Window Manager/Desktop Environment do you use, and why? xyz@eatspam.invalid (JCJ) - 2025-06-28 14:10 +0000

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