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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #36422

Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit

From Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit
Date 2022-12-09 10:25 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <tmv2ea$14djo$3@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <638e69a3@news.ausics.net> <wUudndQJt-HYvA3-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@earthlink.com> <tmpndv$h336$2@dont-email.me> <tmr3hk$lhf8$1@dont-email.me> <3aqcnRxsycXCTQ_-nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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On 09/12/2022 06:06, 26C.Z969 wrote:
> On 12/7/22 5:19 PM, Pancho wrote:
>> On 07/12/2022 09:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 07/12/2022 05:14, 26C.Z969 wrote:
>>>> So, as a PERSONAL HOBBY thing, pushing Bash to its
>>>>    extremes may be a fun pursuit - but in a PRODUCTION
>>>>    ENVIRONMENT (ya know, where people PAY you to make
>>>>    software) it's a BAD THING to go too far into the
>>>>    Dark Side.
>>>
>>> Guy who really taught me how to write code that customers would pay 
>>> for, said 'simple. clean, easily understood, boring workmanlike code'.
>>>
>>
>> Customers want code that works.
> 
>    And the companies providing that code want
>    it to be MAINTAINABLE/EXPANDABLE.
> 
>    Gobbledegoop Bash/C/Python/Perl/Java/Whatever
>    does NOT fit that criteria, no matter how 'clever'.
> 

In my experience, not so much, mainly they just want it to work, now!

>> Code should be simple, but it is often hard to see the simple 
>> solution. If you do write a brilliant simple solution, people will 
>> look at it, and say the code doesn't do very much, anyone could have 
>> done it.
> 
>    Ha !
> 
>    Oh, and "brilliant solutions" can often be expressed
>    simply and clearly in code.

Any system will have a minimum level of simplicity. I would argue one of 
the metrics of code quality is maximising simplicity. It's not just me 
that argues this, Albert Einstein once said “Everything should be made 
as simple as possible, but not simpler.”

In the four decades I have worked in software development, I have seen 
massive advances simplifying code, to achieve similar results. Overall 
complexity has increased, but that is because software now does a lot more.

But at my level I have often seen overly complex systems lauded as 
brilliant, worthy of respect and funding, whereas simple systems are 
dismissed as trivial. If a project costs a lot, managers big up its 
value, to justify the cost.

In one instance, I can remember being rejected at an interview as a 
developer for a project. 18 months later, after this project had failed. 
I was then employed to develop a new project to achieve the same goal. I 
sat at the former desk of the failed project manager, who rejected me, 
and who had just been fired. Six months later, with my solution a huge 
success, another manager who had also been in my initial interview and 
rejected me, took over the project, in order to make the code "a 
corporate core technology". His comment was that it didn't really do 
anything. No mention of the previous failure.

Politics is what counts, very rarely do they care about having good 
developers. In my career, a few periods when they were desperate, but 
that is it.

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Thread

Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-26 23:54 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-11-28 06:56 +1000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-27 22:19 -0500
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit 8c065a96 <8c065a96@gmx.com> - 2022-11-28 16:10 -0500
        Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-30 00:44 -0500
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-02 21:02 +0100
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 23:02 -0500
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-12-02 22:02 -0800
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-03 12:35 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit marrgol <marrgol@address.invalid> - 2022-12-03 12:55 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-03 13:31 +0100
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-28 09:19 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 12:11 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit John McCue <jmccue@magnetar.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> - 2022-11-27 22:13 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-27 23:04 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Jack Strangio  <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-28 04:21 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-28 00:54 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 02:05 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2022-11-29 03:16 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 08:14 +0100
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 08:12 +0100
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 18:46 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-11-29 11:27 -0800
        Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 20:13 +0000
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 23:06 +0100
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 23:04 -0500
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-30 06:22 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-30 00:28 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:32 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 02:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-02 11:22 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-06 23:42 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-11-30 08:00 -0800
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-11-30 17:57 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-01 00:50 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2022-12-01 17:30 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit G <g@nowhere.invalid> - 2022-12-01 14:34 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 00:33 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-01 23:39 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-03 07:21 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-04 22:14 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-06 07:59 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-07 00:14 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-07 09:46 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-07 20:25 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-07 20:29 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:38 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-08 17:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:31 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-08 17:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:23 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:42 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-08 08:47 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-07 22:19 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:37 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-08 08:48 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:06 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-09 10:25 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 02:48 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-10 10:09 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 23:06 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-11 10:49 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-13 01:12 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-14 23:30 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:12 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-13 12:09 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-13 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-15 07:39 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-15 01:43 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-15 10:10 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-15 23:26 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-16 09:24 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 01:29 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-17 07:08 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 20:13 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-17 09:14 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 20:36 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-18 02:26 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-18 12:11 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-12-17 21:04 -0800
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-15 10:12 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-16 00:07 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-01 07:53 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-04 22:30 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-05 19:55 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-06 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-01 10:59 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 01:43 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2022-12-01 13:23 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 01:46 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2022-12-02 14:17 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 09:48 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2022-12-01 20:53 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 02:07 -0500
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:31 +0000
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-12-01 00:46 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-01 10:59 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 00:38 -0500
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:32 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 23:15 -0500

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