Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit

Subject	Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
References	(14 earlier) <wUudndQJt-HYvA3-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@earthlink.com> <tmpndv$h336$2@dont-email.me> <tmr3hk$lhf8$1@dont-email.me> <3aqcnRxsycXCTQ_-nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@earthlink.com> <tmv2ea$14djo$3@dont-email.me>
From	"26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net>
Date	2022-12-10 02:48 -0500
Message-ID	<6oOcncOisrdJpAn-nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@earthlink.com> (permalink)

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On 12/9/22 5:25 AM, Pancho wrote:
> On 09/12/2022 06:06, 26C.Z969 wrote:
>> On 12/7/22 5:19 PM, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 07/12/2022 09:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 07/12/2022 05:14, 26C.Z969 wrote:
>>>>> So, as a PERSONAL HOBBY thing, pushing Bash to its
>>>>>    extremes may be a fun pursuit - but in a PRODUCTION
>>>>>    ENVIRONMENT (ya know, where people PAY you to make
>>>>>    software) it's a BAD THING to go too far into the
>>>>>    Dark Side.
>>>>
>>>> Guy who really taught me how to write code that customers would pay 
>>>> for, said 'simple. clean, easily understood, boring workmanlike code'.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Customers want code that works.
>>
>>    And the companies providing that code want
>>    it to be MAINTAINABLE/EXPANDABLE.
>>
>>    Gobbledegoop Bash/C/Python/Perl/Java/Whatever
>>    does NOT fit that criteria, no matter how 'clever'.
>>
> 
> In my experience, not so much, mainly they just want it to work, now!

   Those are the companies that go out-of-biz TOMORROW.

   Don't fall for the pension-plan/stock-options ploy.

>>> Code should be simple, but it is often hard to see the simple 
>>> solution. If you do write a brilliant simple solution, people will 
>>> look at it, and say the code doesn't do very much, anyone could have 
>>> done it.
>>
>>    Ha !
>>
>>    Oh, and "brilliant solutions" can often be expressed
>>    simply and clearly in code.
> 
> Any system will have a minimum level of simplicity. I would argue one of 
> the metrics of code quality is maximising simplicity. It's not just me 
> that argues this, Albert Einstein once said “Everything should be made 
> as simple as possible, but not simpler.”

   So far agreed ... but some here (you?) seem to be
   glorifying gobbldegoop code.

> In the four decades I have worked in software development, I have seen 
> massive advances simplifying code, to achieve similar results. Overall 
> complexity has increased, but that is because software now does a lot more.

   Big changes since the 8008 chip (which I did write some
   code for) ....

> But at my level I have often seen overly complex systems lauded as 
> brilliant, worthy of respect and funding, whereas simple systems are 
> dismissed as trivial. If a project costs a lot, managers big up its 
> value, to justify the cost.

   That CAN happen. However said pointy-haired bosses
   usually bankrupt the company. Forget the vacation
   plan too ......

   When you find yourself in a situation where close
   management simply does not understand code, TIME
   TO SLIP OUT THE BACK DOOR.

> In one instance, I can remember being rejected at an interview as a 
> developer for a project. 18 months later, after this project had failed. 
> I was then employed to develop a new project to achieve the same goal. I 
> sat at the former desk of the failed project manager, who rejected me, 
> and who had just been fired. Six months later, with my solution a huge 
> success, another manager who had also been in my initial interview and 
> rejected me, took over the project, in order to make the code "a 
> corporate core technology". His comment was that it didn't really do 
> anything. No mention of the previous failure.

   Good "moral revenge"/karma story. Lucky the corp survived
   to PUT you at that desk. Lots and lots of "software"
   companies are undercapitalized and lack product diversity and
   so the first failure is the LAST failure.

> Politics is what counts, very rarely do they care about having good 
> developers. In my career, a few periods when they were desperate, but 
> that is it.

   As the chain of command gets longer, the instances of utter,
   damaging, maybe fatal, STUPIDITY rises exponentially. Those
   In Charge will NOT understand their products or its production
   in the least.

   The BEST solution is to migrate to the smaller outfits, places
   where your expertise is appreciated, where the bosses are likely
   to take good advice. The pay may not be quite as great but the
   satisfaction/security index more than makes up for that.

   But STILL don't write gobbledgoop code ....

   And, on theme, pushing Bash scripts to their ultimate
   incomprehensible limits IS gobbledegoop. I'd say ONE
   level above DOS batch files is as far as you should go
   before switching to a higher-level language. Then
   Those Who Come After will PRAISE you and the company
   will survive to pay yer pension.

   . .

   I'm near retirement at this point. This presents a
   problem for management. I'm THE "guru", the only one
   who gets the whole scheme, knows how to keep it all
   going and safe and how to improve all that. There is
   NOT "another me" in the pipeline and won't be - they
   were lucky to benefit from my multiple software/hardware/
   systems skills for decades (hey, if The Device doesn't
   exist - MAKE the damned thing ! Chips & solder & assembler !)

   They are too small to attract such talent now. No kiddies
   with the skills would hang around for more than a year
   or so but (foolishly) migrate to the Big Boyz in hopes
   of Big $$$. So, little "continuity".

   The fill-ins are a level or two below me - DO have
   some code/OS skills but aren't gonna be MAKING anything
   of consequence that's "new/useful". I have, per PWE
   (even though I'm 'ethical' but not religious), been
   setting them up to "coast" for a year or two.
   After that .....

   So ... they're doing stuff that's not entirely wise.
   Spending large quantities of money trying to externalize
   services, standardize (alas with horrid MS products)
   under the theory that SOME commercial IT provider will
   at least keep the mail/office/net stuff going - not
   understanding that there's a LOT just below the surface
   that really NEEDS to keep running also (or grasping
   that MS is just the visible tip of the proverbial
   iceberg and that everything else runs on Linux/Unix
   right down to the fun little gadgets they depend on).

   Alas the 'providers' we've had experience with have
   NOT been very encouraging in these aspects. We're Just
   Another Small-ish Account. My GUESS is that they'll
   perish from glitches, malware and general MS idiocy
   within a couple of years. Didn't want it to be that
   way but, well, currently, people DO get old.

   So now I'm between the rock and hard place. I don't
   want 30+ years of labor go to nothing, but it looks
   like it WILL go that way. I don't want the org and
   people to suffer, but it looks like it WILL go
   that way. For what they WANT to do/be, those external
   providers AIN'T gonna do it for them. Related orgs
   also had olde-dayz "gurus" and now they're pretty
   much all gone too.

   Words of wisdom would be appreciated. How do we
   attract/HOLD latter-day "gurus" ??? Maybe ply
   the Asperger/Autistic ranks ??? (I admit to
   being lightly Aspie, made me a good compuGeek,
   though there was no such term when I was in
   the schools :-)

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Thread

Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-26 23:54 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-11-28 06:56 +1000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-27 22:19 -0500
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit 8c065a96 <8c065a96@gmx.com> - 2022-11-28 16:10 -0500
        Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-30 00:44 -0500
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-02 21:02 +0100
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 23:02 -0500
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-12-02 22:02 -0800
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-03 12:35 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit marrgol <marrgol@address.invalid> - 2022-12-03 12:55 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-03 13:31 +0100
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-28 09:19 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 12:11 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit John McCue <jmccue@magnetar.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> - 2022-11-27 22:13 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-27 23:04 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Jack Strangio  <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-28 04:21 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-28 00:54 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 02:05 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2022-11-29 03:16 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 08:14 +0100
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 08:12 +0100
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 18:46 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-11-29 11:27 -0800
        Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 20:13 +0000
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 23:06 +0100
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 23:04 -0500
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-30 06:22 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-30 00:28 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:32 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 02:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-02 11:22 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-06 23:42 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-11-30 08:00 -0800
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-11-30 17:57 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-01 00:50 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2022-12-01 17:30 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit G <g@nowhere.invalid> - 2022-12-01 14:34 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 00:33 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-01 23:39 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-03 07:21 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-04 22:14 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-06 07:59 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-07 00:14 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-07 09:46 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-07 20:25 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-07 20:29 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:38 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-08 17:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:31 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-08 17:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:23 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:42 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-08 08:47 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-07 22:19 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:37 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-08 08:48 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:06 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-09 10:25 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 02:48 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-10 10:09 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 23:06 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-11 10:49 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-13 01:12 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-14 23:30 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:12 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-13 12:09 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-13 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-15 07:39 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-15 01:43 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-15 10:10 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-15 23:26 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-16 09:24 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 01:29 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-17 07:08 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 20:13 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-17 09:14 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 20:36 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-18 02:26 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-18 12:11 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-12-17 21:04 -0800
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-15 10:12 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-16 00:07 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-01 07:53 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-04 22:30 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-05 19:55 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-06 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-01 10:59 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 01:43 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2022-12-01 13:23 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 01:46 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2022-12-02 14:17 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 09:48 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2022-12-01 20:53 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 02:07 -0500
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:31 +0000
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-12-01 00:46 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-01 10:59 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 00:38 -0500
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:32 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 23:15 -0500

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