Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit

Subject	Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
References	(11 earlier) <638a6c52@news.ausics.net> <pcmdnSFU_amp_xD-nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <638e69a3@news.ausics.net> <wUudndQJt-HYvA3-nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@earthlink.com> <6397def6@news.ausics.net>
From	"26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net>
Date	2022-12-13 23:21 -0500
Message-ID	<dracnZokA9n80gT-nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@earthlink.com> (permalink)

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On 12/12/22 9:09 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> 26C.Z969 <26C.Z969@noaada.net> wrote:
>> On 12/5/22 4:59 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>>> I could have posted a rant here a few years ago complaining about
>>> the compatibility issues with Python, and how everyone who's
>>> switched to it should "consider" going back to Bash, for example.
>>> But I didn't, because it's just my preference against theirs, and I
>>> just have to put up with less stuff published online being done
>>> with Bash scripts, and working in ten years time.
>>
>>    The "compatibility issues" with Python are largely
>>    illusory. The main thing was P2 to P3. We'll have
>>    to wait to see what happens with P4. Even with
>>    P2->P3 I'd say there was 95% backwards compatibility,
>>    esp in the "understandability" areas.
> 
> I saw this today. So if it's all "illusory", well I'm not the only
> person having this dream.

   You expect everything to stay exactly the same forever ???

   Better go back to Bash 0.1 then - not use any of those
   newfangled features ! Better yet, stick with CP/M-80
   or System-V ... otherwise Those Bastards might CHANGE
   something !

> Python version upgrades and deprecations
>   By Chris Siebenmann, December 8, 2022
>   - https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/python/PythonUpgradesAndDeprectation
> 
> "Recently I read Itamar Turner-Trauring's It's time to stop using
>   Python 3.7 (via). On the one hand, this is pragmatic advice,
>   because as the article mentions Python 3.7 is reaching its end of
>   life as of June 2023. On the other hand it gives me feelings, and
>   one of the feelings is that the Python developers are not making
>   upgrades any easier by slowly deprecating various standard library
>   modules. Some of these modules are basically obsolete now, but some
>   are not and have no straightforward replacement, such as the cgi
>   module.

   IMHO if P3.9 is current, you should write for P3.5 in order to
   cover different sub-versions found on various systems. The
   newest tricks are also the most likely to 'evolve' in ways
   that cause issues as the "oops ! we kinda hurried THAT out"
   realizations appear.

   I've been writing a lot of Python this week - and it ALL works
   as advertised ... and my older code STILL works.

   Dunno WHAT you're doing that's SO unstable. Suggest doing it
   some other way.

   I'm re-writing a large-ish P3.2 script that's been in use to
   this day. It does OS-level stuff, subprocesses and threads,
   and STILL WORKS. The only reason I'm re-writing it is because
   there'd been too much feature-creep and the logic was getting
   too hard to see. The new one is much neater and structurally
   incorporates the most important creepy features instead
   of them being just jammed in there with a bunch of flags
   and such required to make 'em work. I like neat code you
   can still understand five or ten years later. Also wrote a
   Pascal version for Linux - the Python version is meant to
   be cross-platform (and Those Who Will Follow are a lot
   more into Python than Pascal or 'C' ... Python is to
   them what BASIC was to the previous gen or COBOL and FORTRAN
   were to the even older geeks - it's what they learned in
   school, super-familiar do-it-alls).

>   The Python developers can do whatever they want to do (that's the
>   power of open source), and they clearly want to move Python forward
>   (as they see it) by cleaning up the standard library. But this
>   means that they are perfectly willing to break backward
>   compatibility in Python 3, at least for the standard library.

   I think they break it when they HAVE to, not for funzies.

   P3 was a significant internal paradigm shift after LONG
   consideration and debate. I don't think P4 will be as
   drastic.

   Dunno what's up for the next gen ... likely Gen-5+ 'AI'-ware
   where you don't so much "program" as describe the problem and
   let the 'compiler' assemble the working code from a bunch of
   little standard building blocks. SOMEBODY will still have to
   write/maintain the underlying system of course, probably
   still mostly 'C', for awhile until the 'AI' system is writ
   in and by the 'AI' system. There's more than one language
   that came to be "written in itself" ... sometimes including
   the underlying OS too. I guess the "most famous" example
   was Wirth's Lillith box

>   One of the things that make upgrading versions of anything easy is
>   if the new version is a drop in replacement for the old one.
>   Deprecating and eventually removing things in new versions means
>   that new versions are not drop in replacements, which means that it
>   makes upgrading harder. When upgrading is harder, (more) people put
>   it off or don't do it. This happens regardless of what the software
>   authors like or think, because people are people.
> 
>   I doubt this is a direct factor in people still using Python 3.7.
>   But I can't help but think that the Python developers' general
>   attitude toward backward compatibility doesn't help." ...

   Nope, I'm still gonna use P3.7 and beyond. Great language
   for whipping-up stuff in a hurry and a thoughtful, somewhat
   conservative, approach minimizes the depreciation issues.
   And for working a lot on STRINGS in a quick comprehensible
   fashion there's really nothing to beat it. I think they
   stole string-slicing from FORTRAN though .....

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Thread

Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-26 23:54 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-11-28 06:56 +1000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-27 22:19 -0500
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit 8c065a96 <8c065a96@gmx.com> - 2022-11-28 16:10 -0500
        Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-30 00:44 -0500
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-02 21:02 +0100
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 23:02 -0500
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-12-02 22:02 -0800
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-03 12:35 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit marrgol <marrgol@address.invalid> - 2022-12-03 12:55 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2022-12-03 13:31 +0100
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-28 09:19 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 12:11 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit John McCue <jmccue@magnetar.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> - 2022-11-27 22:13 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-27 23:04 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Jack Strangio  <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-28 04:21 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-28 00:54 -0500
  Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 02:05 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2022-11-29 03:16 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 08:14 +0100
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 08:12 +0100
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 18:46 +0000
      Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-11-29 11:27 -0800
        Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-11-29 20:13 +0000
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-29 23:06 +0100
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 23:04 -0500
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2022-11-30 06:22 +0100
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-30 00:28 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:32 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 02:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-02 11:22 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-06 23:42 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-11-30 08:00 -0800
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-11-30 17:57 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-01 00:50 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2022-12-01 17:30 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit G <g@nowhere.invalid> - 2022-12-01 14:34 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 00:33 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-01 23:39 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-03 07:21 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-04 22:14 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-06 07:59 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-07 00:14 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-07 09:46 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-07 20:25 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-07 20:29 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:38 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-08 17:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:31 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-08 17:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:23 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:42 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-08 08:47 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-07 22:19 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:37 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-08 08:48 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-09 10:24 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-09 01:06 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-09 10:25 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 02:48 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-10 10:09 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-10 14:36 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-10 23:06 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-11 10:49 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-13 01:12 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2022-12-14 23:30 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-08 00:12 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-13 12:09 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-13 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2022-12-15 07:39 +1000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-15 01:43 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-15 10:10 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-15 23:26 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-16 09:24 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 01:29 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-17 07:08 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 20:13 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-17 09:14 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-17 20:36 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-18 02:26 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-18 12:11 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2022-12-17 21:04 -0800
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-15 10:12 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-16 00:07 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-01 07:53 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-04 22:30 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-05 19:55 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-06 23:21 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-01 10:59 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 01:43 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2022-12-01 13:23 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 01:46 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2022-12-02 14:17 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 09:48 -0500
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2022-12-01 20:53 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 02:07 -0500
            Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:31 +0000
              Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2022-12-01 00:46 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-01 10:59 +0000
                Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-12-02 00:38 -0500
          Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-30 09:32 +0000
    Re: Bashing Bash Just a Bit "26C.Z969" <26C.Z969@noaada.net> - 2022-11-29 23:15 -0500

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