Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc, alt.comp.os.windows-11
Subject	Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE
Date	2025-08-19 14:20 +0200
Message-ID	<sp6enlxeiu.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References	(22 earlier) <JrWdndsu27rcIj_1nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@giganews.com> <107v5hv$31sa6$1@dont-email.me> <336dnRifBN1ekTn1nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> <c71enlxmr9.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <1081nan$3n62i$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 2025-08-19 13:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/08/2025 11:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-08-19 07:33, c186282 wrote:
>>> On 8/18/25 8:16 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>> On 18/08/2025 3:50 pm, c186282 wrote:
>>>>> On 8/17/25 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <Snip>
>>>>
>>>>>> Climbing up towards 70dB S/N. But still subject to snap crackle 
>>>>>> and pop
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And rumble flutter and wow.
>>>>>
>>>>>    The brain filtered that out pretty well.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Hi-Fi has less to do with technical accuracy than
>>>>>    it has to do with how the material is *perceived*
>>>>
>>>> Correct. And speaking about "perceived" .... I can remember 
>>>> listening to an album (one of those big black discs) put out by 
>>>> 'Kraftwerk' called 'Autobahn'. I was lying on the Lounge-room floor 
>>>> with headphones on and, when the 'Autobahn' tune starts, the 
>>>> 'music' (sound of a vehicle) is way off in the distance in one ear. 
>>>> Slowly the 'music' (vehicle noise) gets louder and louder and LOUDER 
>>>> then crosses to the other ear ..... then gets softer and softer as 
>>>> the vehicle 'disappears' away back into the distance.
>>>>
>>>> Just about sent me 'Cross-eyed' ever time I listened to it!! NICE!! 
>>>> Bliss, even.
>>>>
>>>> (Thanks for the memories!! ;-) )
>>>
>>>
>>>    Spectral readings and tech specs do NOT define
>>>    what "sounds great".
>>>
>>>    We're "goo-ware" - not hardware.
>>
>> Surely we can define what should sound great on our measurement 
>> instruments. And once the rules are defined, that's repeatable and 
>> objective.
>>
>>
>>
> I spent 15 years designing audio.
> 
> In the end I could identify issues just by listening
> 
> - If the sound is gritty or edgy, you have crossover distortion or a 
> failing loudspeaker.
> - if the sound is muddy and you hear the music, but not the individual 
> instruments, you have intermodulation distortion. This is what happens 
> in your ears as you get older making it hard to pick out one 
> conversation in a noisy place. In general there isn't much of that in 
> modern electronics: It's likely to be a shitty loudspeaker.
> - if the cymbals and triangles and hi hats smash, but don't ring, your 
> cloth eared sound engineer has overloaded the recording medium. Very 
> easy to do with old tape machines, and VU meters, not so with digital
> - If your FM stereo sounds slightly weird right at the extreme treble, 
> you don't have enough bandwidth in the IF strip. Most FM is in fact like 
> this.  I built a really good wideband FM receiver, but it suffered from 
> co channel interference in continental Europe..
> -if your bass is boxy, the loudspeaker is trying to sound like it has 
> bass when it doesn't.
> - if the sound sounds like cardboard, that's because it is. You are 
> hearing the loudspeaker cone, not the music.
> 
> In short real hifi is that you can hear every instrument clearly and 
> separately, and especially every single voice in a choral work.  Top end 
> loudspeakers designed for classical are designed like that. Very flat 
> frequency response, very low resonances in the cabinet and loudspeakers 
> and very low intermodulation distortions, You hear te instruments, not 
> the music and absolutely not the loudspeaker
> 
> Loudspeakers for country jazz rock and pop concentrate more on 
> delivering a good bass, and since there aren't many instruments, tend to 
> generate a 'sound' which will depend on the compromises they made. Cheap 
> loudspeakers you hear the loudspeakers, not the music, and absolutely 
> not the instruments.
> It two loudspeakers 'sound different', at least one of them is shit.  At 
> the top end yiou cant tell them apart really.
> 
> As far as amplifiers go, I stopped designing them when it became clear 
> that there were in all cases indistinguishable and way more than good 
> enough. Around the mid 1980s transistor technology was so advanced that 
> you could really design essentially 'perfect' amplifiers.
> 
> Vinyl disc amps were what they were, and we pushed the limits of  low 
> noise transistors till they were in the end quieter than the hiss on the 
> records. FM radio in the end we were limited by the conflicting 
> requirements of adjacent channel reception and high bandwidth with 
> smooth phase response to get HF stereo to an acceptable quality.
> 
> AM radio was as good as it could be made, which was never, in Europe, Hi 
> fi.
> 
> Digital sound pushed the available quality up massively. In particular 
> digital mastering made a huge difference to recorded quality- even the 
> best 1" tape at 30IPS is nowhere near a 12 bit, let alone 16 bit 
> recording at 44 or 48Khz sampling rate.
> 
> The maximum dynamic range between the needle jumping out of the groove 
> and chattering, and the hiss on the electronics and the vinyl itself was 
> about 75dB on a vinyl record
> 
> CD will do 96dB, and with clever processing sound even better. up to 120dB.
> 
> CDs had one flaw initially - crossover distortion, due to the design of 
> the DACS, And sometimes a bit of weirdness in the high treble due to the 
> need to filter out the sampling frequency with cheap filters.Today 
> that's all gone. They too, are essentially perfect.
> 
> Unfortunately the quality of music is rubbish today. Crudely constructed 
> pop songs featuring nubile singers in skimpy clothing, done on a 
> shoestring and compressed down to be listened to on an earbud via a 
> massively compressed MP3 stream is nothing whatever to do with hi 
> fidelity audio.
> 
> The final message is, trust your ears, not the advertising,  listen to 
> choral music as the absolute best test, and forget about vinyl, pre amps 
> and power amps, gold plated cables and spend all the money you have on 
> the very best loudspeakers you can afford.
> 
> The test instruments confirm what you can hear, but no one has access to 
> test instruments and what they put in magazines is just the most basic 
> shit.

Thanks for the summary :-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-15 02:56 -0400
  Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-15 13:32 +0100
    Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-16 00:28 +1000
      Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-15 16:30 +0100
      Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-16 02:19 +0000
        Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-16 20:20 +1000
          Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-16 13:12 +0100
            Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-17 01:33 +0000
              Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-17 00:59 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-17 10:51 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-17 18:12 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-17 20:57 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-18 00:27 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-18 01:50 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-18 10:59 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-18 07:11 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-18 17:49 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 22:16 +1000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-19 01:33 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 09:33 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-19 12:45 +0200
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 12:31 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-19 14:20 +0200
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-20 01:16 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-20 10:46 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-19 21:35 +1000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 12:47 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-20 01:02 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-20 05:24 +0000
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            Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-17 00:49 -0400
              Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-17 10:44 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-18 00:33 +0000
                CD-DA and CD-ROM (was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-18 09:38 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-18 01:16 -0400
            Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-17 15:23 +0200
              Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-17 14:32 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-08-17 10:26 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 22:33 +1000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-18 17:53 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-19 01:08 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-19 01:52 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 09:35 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-19 17:57 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-20 09:49 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-20 17:21 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-20 00:04 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-20 10:30 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 09:36 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-20 00:12 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-19 21:53 +1000
              Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 22:28 +1000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-18 17:51 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-19 02:38 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 09:42 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-20 00:50 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-20 10:35 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-19 21:58 +1000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-19 01:10 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-19 22:02 +1000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 13:34 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-19 01:13 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-18 19:10 -0700
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-19 03:19 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-19 09:28 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-19 17:57 +0000
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                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-20 09:50 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-20 05:15 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-20 17:21 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-20 19:28 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-20 19:24 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-20 20:17 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-21 00:57 -0400
                POLITICS!! (was ... Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE) Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-21 21:24 +1000
                Re: POLITICS!! (was ... Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE) The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-21 12:32 +0100
                Re: POLITICS!! (was ... Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-21 20:07 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-21 20:02 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-08-21 13:14 -0700
                Re: Teslas and Toyotas Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-22 18:35 +0000
                Re: Teslas and Toyotas rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 04:37 +0000
                Re: Pickup trucks for city boys Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-22 14:07 +0000
                Re: Pickup trucks for city boys rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-22 18:19 +0000
                Re: Pickup trucks for city boys The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 19:55 +0100
                Re: Pickup trucks for city boys c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 00:42 -0400
                Re: Pickup trucks for city boys rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 19:51 +0000
                Re: Pickup trucks for city boys "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 14:15 +0200
                Re: Pickup trucks for city boys rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 04:42 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-21 00:51 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-21 12:47 +0200
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-22 09:49 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 20:45 +0200
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 19:58 +0100
                Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 22:46 +0200
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 22:03 +0100
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 05:10 +0000
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-23 11:32 +0100
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 04:11 -0400
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-23 11:38 +0100
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-24 02:27 -0400
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 05:07 +0000
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 03:04 -0400
                Re: Electric 2CV [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 22:02 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 01:17 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 20:54 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-22 23:21 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 05:01 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 14:38 +0200
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-21 19:04 +0000
                High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-21 22:51 +0000
                Re: High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-22 00:54 +0000
                Re: High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 11:58 +0200
                Re: High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-22 13:45 +0000
                Re: High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 20:47 +0200
                Re: High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-22 19:46 +0000
                Re: High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-22 19:42 +0000
                Re: High Fidelity (or maybe not?) - Car Radios c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 01:45 -0400
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-20 17:21 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-20 19:50 +0000
                Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-19 23:30 -0400

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