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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #87369

Re: Redundancy/Survival

From TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Redundancy/Survival
Date 2026-06-02 15:48 +0000
Organization The Null Device Restoration Society
Message-ID <fe5f3db28ed1804b61a3@dev.null> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <UYicndWFJtyzQoX3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> <10vaorr$3r8c4$1@dont-email.me> <10vk256$27ab8$5@dont-email.me> <10vl3kr$2ii0i$1@dont-email.me> <10vmtdr$6c5k$1@solani.org>

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>On Tue, 2 Jun 2026 17:38:35 +0200, Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>Am 02.06.26 um 01:12 schrieb InterLinked:
>> On 6/1/2026 9:40 AM, Rich wrote:
>>> InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
>>>> though for some reason I can only negotiate 33.6k.
>>>
>>> 33.6 is as high as you can negioate using digital to audio and audio to
>>> digital signal transmission (i.e., standard "modem" working) due to the
>>> underlying digitizing rate for all phone calls by the carriers.
>>  >
>>>> so something about the fiber arrangement seems to be interfering with
>>>> V.90/V.92 negotiation.)
>>>
>>> Obtaining speeds higher than 33.6 requires:
>>> 1) copper between the modem and the dmarc in the exchange
>>> 2) the dmark in the switch being one that can have the analog to
>>> digital converter at the end of the copper turned off.
>>>
>>> The higher speeds work by both ends driving the copper as if it were a
>>> digital baseband network link (i.e., somewhat akin to driving ethernet
>>> signaling over the line).
>>>
>>> But, with any analog to digital converters in between mean you can't
>>> get better than 33.6.  And all the "fiber to your home, with a little
>>> box that drives your in house copper as if it were still connected to
>>> POTS" means there is a small analog to digital converter in the way
>>> (and no one decided to offer the ability to switch it off and drive the
>>> copper as digital baseband).
>>
>> Yes, I'm aware of the 33.6 ceiling with conversions.
>>
>> I don't think I mentioned it before, but I can get 36000 (not 33600)
>> when calling certain modems. I've gotten it a few times when calling the
>> dial-up ISP here in the US (there is really only one, no matter which
>> reseller you use), but usually just 33600.
>>
>> That demonstrates I can get speeds > 33.6k, but usually the negotiation
>> fails (I can hear it too, it's not happy trying to negotiate V.90/V.92).
>>
>> My point was that copper POTS customers can get speeds in the 40s/50s
>> calling the same service, no problem at all, but I'm not able to do that
>> with my service being delivered over fiber. Dial-up Internet speeds are
>> actually *hampered* by fiber... how ironic is that?
>
>This is because the analog signal is being converter to a digital signal
>by an analog to digital converter - it does not interpret the digital
>data signal. With ISDN, this was't that faulty, as ISDN is
>line-switched. IP is packet-switched, so jitter is there and relevant.
>The VoIP phone signal is also transferred between different carriers,
>which means there might be codec conversions.
>
>TLDR: V.90 is intended for analog lines, not for any digital service.
>
>> So from my (consumer) perspective, fiber is a loser. It's inferior
>> quality and connectivity and it doesn't work in a power outage. There's
>> already coax in my area for CATV so the fiber was redundant to begin
>> with for broadband. They crippled our phone service in favor of another
>> expensive[1] and unregulated service... but it's great for the telco!
>> Now the burden - and cost - of powering phone service is on the consumer.
>
>Analog dialup internet is a dead thing. It already was when ISDN came
>out - although usage was still possible.
>
>Nowadays analog dialup is almost useless. Even if you could use it
>nowadays, the speed is so low, no normal website can be opened in a
>reasonable time, you will most likely get timeouts.
>That means the amount of people who will use it is very low and that
>means the providers will stop providing it. Some still provide it, but
>they won't invest in it.
>If their devices fail, they will stop providing the service.
>
>The ISDN support was removed from Linux, dunno about Windows. Device
>drivers for various ISDN devices were last supported on XP...
>
>This will mean it will be harder for telcos to provide dialup internet -
>even if they want.
>
>Satellite based internet will thrive away the last users, as this is
>much faster.

For redundancy, I would treat analog dialup over a fibre/VoIP terminal as a
best-effort curiosity, not as the backup path.

A practical setup is usually:

* put the ONT/router/phone ATA on a UPS and actually time how long it runs;
* keep a small LTE/5G router or phone-tethering path tested and documented;
* if dialup still matters, test the exact modem, number, and carrier path you
intend to use, because codec/ATA/carrier changes can break it without notice.

The important part is not what the service is called, but whether it survives
the failure you care about.  A copper pair with central-office battery was good
at that; a fibre ONT in the house is only as good as its local power and the
provider's outside plant.

-- 
TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null>
"I survived the great rm -rf / rehearsal and all I got was this .signature."

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Thread

Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 02:21 -0400
  Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 08:46 +0200
    Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:49 +0200
      Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:47 -0400
      Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:25 +0200
      Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 09:53 +0000
    Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:38 -0400
      Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:35 +0200
      Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 22:09 +0000
        Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-26 16:17 -0700
          Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 00:02 +0000
            Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-27 00:11 -0400
              Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-28 10:32 +0200
            Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 08:41 +0100
              Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-27 11:04 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:31 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:18 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:42 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 15:01 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 21:34 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 11:07 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:55 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:14 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:36 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:26 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 17:24 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:37 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 22:34 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:29 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:09 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 23:29 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-31 21:45 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:15 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 18:53 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-02 01:46 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 03:01 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:12 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:16 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:09 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 21:26 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 02:58 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 11:11 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-29 04:30 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:34 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:36 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:38 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 05:09 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 03:10 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 07:14 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:49 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-01 04:57 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:20 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 19:45 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 18:30 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:27 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 10:49 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 13:16 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:35 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:21 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 18:25 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 21:36 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:00 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-06-02 17:44 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 17:54 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:17 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:50 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 01:07 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:47 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:36 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:33 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:26 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:31 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:49 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-30 09:09 +1000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:17 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-31 07:33 +1000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:14 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:09 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:51 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:28 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:58 +0200
              Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 20:51 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-27 14:02 -0700
                Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 08:54 +1000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-28 05:04 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:54 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-05-28 09:15 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:29 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:45 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-29 02:50 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:17 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:48 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:25 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:20 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 14:16 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 04:00 +0000
          Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 23:41 -0400
            Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:09 +0100
              Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:51 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-28 17:08 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 22:14 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 04:41 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:53 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:32 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:19 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:52 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:08 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:55 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:39 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 13:21 +0200
        Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 22:39 -0400
          Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:10 +0100
            Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 09:05 +1000
              Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 08:19 +0100
            Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:52 -0400
              Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:20 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 20:34 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-28 21:07 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:40 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:12 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:28 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 12:15 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:19 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:30 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:29 +0100
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 16:49 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-06-02 17:38 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 15:48 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 17:55 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:03 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-02 12:22 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:36 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:39 +0200
                Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 01:21 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:08 -0400
                Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:41 +0000
              Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:23 +0000
                Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 23:00 +0200
  Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:44 +0200
    Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:45 -0400
    Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:38 +0200
  Re: Redundancy/Survival "Worst Case" <fritz@spamexpire-202605.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200

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