Re: GNU

From	Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc, alt.usage.english
Subject	Re: GNU
Date	2026-03-18 17:16 +1100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10pdfvs$3j84g$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(24 earlier) <10pa65m$2f963$1@dont-email.me> <10pa8vb$2fkq9$7@dont-email.me> <10pcuva$3ekal$1@dont-email.me> <10pd070$3ei4j$3@dont-email.me> <1rs59mz.nw27v8yy97eoN%snipeco.2@gmail.com>

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On 18/03/26 13:06, Sn!pe wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 12:25:58 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>> On 17/03/26 11:58, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me the whole electrical power supply system is
>>>> inherently unstable. All you can do is build in more
>>>> redundancy to broaden the peak at the top of the curve where
>>>> the system is supposed to sit, to form a little valley up there
>>>> to make it more resistant to shocks. But there will always be a
>>>> limit to how much abuse it can take, and if you get pushed
>>>> beyond that, then down the mountainside it falls.
>>>
>>> I assume that the "curve" you mean is the graph of power versus
>>> torque angle.
>>
>> No. Think of the landscape as a multidimensional space involving
>> the total operational state of the various components of the
>> electricity generation and distribution system, and the height as
>> the desirability of that state. Gravity represents how the system
>> tends to move to a new state from any given position.
>>
>> The highest point is where everything is functioning as it should.
>>  Move too far from that, and you find yourself on a slope where it
>>  becomes very hard to move back up rather than down.

That's good poetry, and I'd love to see it translated into practical
terms. If you could find a formula or algorithm to express "desirability
of the state", that would be a major new contribution to power systems
engineering.

> Is the concept of inertia due to rotating machinery relevant to
> this?

Yes and no. There's no short answer, so I'll confine myself to just a
few comments.

> I read somewhere that the increasing proportion of non-rotating
> generating equipment (e.g. solar) was a factor in the Spanish
> collapse.

I can't comment on the Spanish case because I don't know enough about
it. What I do know is this: if anyone tells you there's a simple answer,
he's talking through his arse.

When a power system collapses, it's a snowball process. Some adverse
event, for example a lightning strike, causes a circuit breaker to open,
taking one transmission line out of service. That causes a
redistribution of current and power flows. If it so happens that this
overloads one line, another circuit breaker opens. That again
redistributes the currents ... I think you can see why I called it a
snowball.

To solve that, you build excess capacity into the system. Analysis of
likely failure modes, usually via simulation, can tell you where extra
transmission lines are needed, or extra VAR compensators (see below) or
whatever. But bad luck can also play a part. If that lightning strike
had hit one hour earlier, it wouldn't have hit a time of peak demand,
and the system would have recovered.

Let's talk about frequency stability. If you start up a synchronous
generator, connected to nothing, it will produce a sinusoidal voltage
that depends on its speed, and of course the speed depends on the
(non-electrical) machine that's driving it.

If you now connect two such machines (and do it carefully enough so that
the combination doesn't go unstable), they will spontaneously settle on
a compromise frequency, with the machine with the biggest prime mover
being the most influential. Add more machines, and soon you'll have so
much inertia in the system that the mutually agreed frequency remains
constant despite any disturbances. Of course a sufficiently large
disturbance can still bring the system down; but the bigger the overall
power system, the more it is resistant to disturbances.

Now, in what might seem a digression, let's look at VAR compensation.
The power flows in the system are actually complex numbers, in the usual
formulation, having both a real and a reactive part. The reactive power
might not seem to be doing anything, but in fact the reactive power
balance can have a major influence on stability. You can improve
stability by injecting reactive power in the right place(s). This is
done with what are called VAR compensators.

The traditional VAR compensator, also known as a synchronous condenser,
is a rotating machine. In fact, it's just a generator that is not
producing or consuming any real power. (Apart from the inevitable
losses.) These days, however, we know how to do the same job with a
non-rotating electronic device. Which is better? They're both doing the
same job, so the answer is that they're as good as each other. OK, the
rotating version is contributing somewhat to frequency stability, but
it's outvoted by all the other machines in the system. The choice
between them is purely a matter of cost.

The big issue is DC vs AC. The rotating generators are all AC devices
Renewable sources like solar panels produce DC. To connect to the
network, they must use inverters. Those inverters just synchronise to
the existing AC network, but they don't contribute to its inertia. If I
had my druthers, I would run a high-voltage DC network in parallel with
the existing AC network, and cross-connect them only at a limited number
of locations. The designers have not chosen to go that way.

Once you're producing more DC than AC power, the AC subsystem doesn't
have the same frequency stability as before. That's a solvable problem,
though. The designers just have to think it through a little harder.

-- 
Peter Moylan       peter@pmoylan.org    http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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                Re: GNU "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-07 11:02 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 21:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-08 09:50 +1100
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-08 02:06 +0000
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                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-07 12:46 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-07 13:01 +0100
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-07 13:57 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-07 13:48 +0000
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                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 00:31 -0400
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                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-09 22:48 +1300
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-09 10:14 +0100
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:32 +0200
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 09:10 -0700
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-09 01:16 +0200
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 00:58 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 01:07 -0400
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 06:22 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:00 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 10:09 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 06:16 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 06:24 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 06:54 +0000
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-09 07:37 +0000
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:37 +0200
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 10:37 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-11 10:09 +1100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-10 13:25 +0000
                Re: GNU Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2026-03-10 14:26 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-10 15:49 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 12:54 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-15 12:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-16 12:11 +1100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-16 07:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-16 07:50 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-16 22:03 +1300
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 13:00 +0000
                Re: GNU Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-03-17 18:08 +0000
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-16 09:28 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-16 10:36 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-16 08:58 +0100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-16 09:28 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-16 09:34 +1300
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:23 +0100
                Re: GNU Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-15 23:38 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-15 21:24 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 12:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-03-16 12:27 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:27 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-16 13:29 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-16 06:29 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-16 17:52 +1100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 00:32 -0700
                Re: GNU Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-03-16 12:41 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 08:55 -0700
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 10:03 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:01 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-17 08:18 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 19:03 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-17 12:27 -0700
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-17 22:23 +0100
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-17 22:18 +0100
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-18 10:42 +1100
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-17 22:29 -0600
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 12:39 -0700
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-17 15:55 -0700
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-18 07:47 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 09:42 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 09:06 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:08 +0000
                Re: GNU Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-03-09 09:45 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:12 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 21:52 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-09 23:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-10 16:28 +1100
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-10 08:57 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 10:30 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 17:53 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 19:24 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 05:34 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 10:32 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-10 12:43 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 11:47 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 18:10 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 18:06 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-10 19:35 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-11 10:13 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 09:57 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-11 21:41 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 12:19 +0000
                Re: GNU vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-03-11 14:19 +0000
                Re: GNU Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-03-12 02:49 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-12 04:51 +0000
                Encodings (was: Re: GNU) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-12 10:36 +0000
                Re: GNU liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-11 17:55 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-11 19:03 +0000
                Re: GNU richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-03-11 19:11 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 20:22 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-11 22:06 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-11 11:40 -0600
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-10 13:56 -0600
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-09 22:10 -0600
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 21:17 +1100
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-10 11:40 +1300
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-10 16:34 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 13:29 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 15:48 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 20:49 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-09 14:36 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-09 11:35 -0600
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:07 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 14:11 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:25 +0000
                Re: GNU Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-03-09 15:45 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 00:49 -0400
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 16:42 +1100
                Re: GNU Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-03-09 08:18 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:14 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 20:32 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:10 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-09 12:51 -0600
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 15:23 -0400
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:42 +0200
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-10 09:46 +0200
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-11 20:59 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 20:58 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 09:04 -0700
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 10:00 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-08 22:06 -0600
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 06:25 +0000
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-09 10:28 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:38 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 16:59 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-07 12:34 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-07 22:37 +0100
                Re: GNU athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-07 17:00 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-07 22:35 +0100
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-07 16:25 -0600
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-08 14:30 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 06:02 +0000
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-08 07:42 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:42 +0000
                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 16:40 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 14:20 +0000
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-07 18:41 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 23:37 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-07 22:33 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:05 +0100
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-08 09:53 +1100
                Re: GNU Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-03-08 07:45 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-08 20:54 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-09 22:08 +1300
                Re: GNU Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-03-09 13:31 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-07 12:28 +0000
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-08 03:01 +0200
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-08 01:40 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 04:37 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 06:22 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 07:32 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-08 20:27 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 11:30 +0000
                Re: GNU richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-03-08 11:41 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 10:09 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 16:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-09 10:13 +1100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-15 22:13 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-15 15:27 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 12:55 +0000
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-16 09:13 -0400
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 13:19 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-16 20:40 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 14:32 -0700
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 17:48 -0400
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 15:15 -0700
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 20:00 -0400
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 11:23 +1100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 00:51 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:23 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:41 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:50 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 12:58 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 12:22 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 15:24 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:05 +0000
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 10:16 -0400
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:05 +0000
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-17 11:49 -0400
                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 17:14 -0700
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 00:18 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 19:09 +0000
                Re: GNU Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-03-17 13:38 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 15:08 -0700
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 15:18 -0700
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:25 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 21:47 -0700
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-18 05:35 +0200
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 10:16 +0000
                Re: GNU Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-03-20 05:53 +0200
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 08:46 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:36 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-20 08:26 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:51 +0000
                Re: GNU John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 09:26 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 19:10 +0000
                Re: GNU Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-16 23:11 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 10:27 +1100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:27 +0000
                Re: GNU "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-17 10:33 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:49 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:59 +0000
                Re: GNU Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-03-17 23:08 +1300
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-17 13:24 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 15:33 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 21:51 -0700
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 06:23 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:58 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:55 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-17 13:24 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 18:56 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 22:59 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:07 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 04:01 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-18 14:03 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-17 01:20 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-16 22:08 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 09:02 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:47 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 08:47 +0000
                Re: GNU "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-17 10:41 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-18 11:04 +1100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-18 14:03 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 13:14 +0000
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-17 10:21 +1100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-17 00:55 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 02:53 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-17 09:10 +0000
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-17 11:43 -0400
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-17 22:37 +0100
                Re: GNU Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-03-17 18:43 -0400
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:15 +0100
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 02:19 +0000
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-18 02:29 +0000
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-17 20:17 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 09:31 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 11:41 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 18:28 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:31 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 23:26 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 11:48 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 12:17 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:31 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 14:24 +0100
                Re: GNU Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-04-01 14:30 +0200
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-04-02 10:48 +1100
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-18 10:16 -0600
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-18 09:40 -0700
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 16:56 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 20:00 +0100
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 23:49 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 11:48 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:34 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 14:24 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 14:06 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 22:32 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 07:38 +0000
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:22 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:34 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-21 22:32 +0100
                Re: GNU snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-19 15:24 +0000
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 17:50 +0000
                Re: GNU rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 19:58 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 11:32 +0100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 12:19 +0000
                Re: GNU Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 17:36 -0700
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:01 +0100
                Re: GNU Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-03-18 19:16 -0700
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:36 +0100
                Re: GNU Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 00:24 +0000
                Re: GNU lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2026-03-18 22:48 -0600
                Re: GNU Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-03-18 22:45 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-19 10:01 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-18 11:42 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-20 12:39 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:38 +0100
                Re: GNU Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:22 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-21 22:32 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-22 03:19 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-22 10:52 +0100
                Re: GNU "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-03-22 15:12 +0100
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-22 18:37 +0100
                Re: GNU Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-03-22 16:31 -0400
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-22 23:31 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-22 23:18 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-23 11:57 +0100
                Re: GNU Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-03-23 22:15 +1100
                Re: GNU The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-23 11:30 +0000
                Re: GNU nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-23 13:55 +0100
                Re: GNU Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 09:15 +0000
                Re: GNU Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-03-24 10:17 +0000

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