Groups > comp.lang.python > #4380 > unrolled thread

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Started by	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
First post	2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Last post	2011-05-04 07:28 -0700
Articles	16 on this page of 176 — 34 participants

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What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-05-01 02:04 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 15:10 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:37 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-05-02 07:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-04 10:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-04 03:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:12 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 14:44 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 00:20 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:18 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:03 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 20:55 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 11:31 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:21 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 19:28 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 20:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-08 02:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-07 23:10 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 22:48 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-09 12:52 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 11:38 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 21:18 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 21:53 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-09 14:29 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2011-05-09 15:41 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-09 10:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-09 13:38 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-09 16:23 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 19:41 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 19:35 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-11 10:47 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-10 15:18 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 21:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 16:28 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 07:23 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:22 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 15:46 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:31 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:50 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 22:37 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 20:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:49 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:12 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:08 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:12 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:30 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? TheSaint <nobody@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-05-07 20:18 +0800
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:31 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 09:40 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:49 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:47 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-05 07:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 12:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:42 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:04 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 06:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-07 16:24 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:54 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 11:16 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-07 23:16 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 16:32 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:49 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-10 03:13 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 14:05 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 15:16 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:27 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:44 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:51 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-05-10 03:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-09 23:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 14:52 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:46 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 21:32 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:06 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:41 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 10:44 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 17:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 07:44 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 21:48 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 13:59 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 13:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-05 14:39 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 11:56 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:13 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:33 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 20:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:35 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 21:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 20:11 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> - 2011-05-05 12:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:01 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:19 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:31 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 15:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 11:29 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 08:01 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-06 13:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 17:39 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 13:13 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 15:12 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-05-04 20:23 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:55 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:21 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 08:09 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:34 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 11:30 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 10:56 -0500
RE: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com> - 2011-05-05 18:27 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:09 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 07:56 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:11 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:00 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:03 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:12 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-07 12:03 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:48 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-05 22:24 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:18 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-05 10:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 18:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 19:06 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-06 14:25 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 16:22 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:51 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:20 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-04 22:10 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 00:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:25 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:44 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 13:15 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 15:48 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 05:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:24 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:28 -0700

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#4679

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-04 19:51 -0500
Message-ID	<7wmwp.310$BG2.82@newsfe08.iad>
In reply to	#4671

Ian Kelly wrote:
> However, I hope we can all agree that pass-by-pointer shares certain
> features with both pass-by-value and pass-by-reference, and there are
> perfectly reasonable arguments for lumping it in either category, yes?

Yes.

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#4741

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-05 14:51 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc2b988$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#4671

On Wed, 04 May 2011 16:22:42 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:

> However, I hope we can all agree that pass-by-pointer shares certain
> features with both pass-by-value and pass-by-reference, and there are
> perfectly reasonable arguments for lumping it in either category, yes?

*cries*

Please don't invent another "pass by foo" term!!!!

Seriously though, "pass by foo" refers to what the compiler or 
interpreter does when you, the coder, call a function with some variable, 
say, x:

f(x)

It is not referring to what you, the coder, does when you want to pass an 
indirect reference of some sort to a chunk of data to some function. In 
many languages, you would use a pointer, and write the function call 
something like this:

f(^x)

(using Pascal's up-arrow notation for "pointer to").

Such "pass by pointer" is a tactic used by the coder, as opposed to a 
language feature.

I believe this distinction between what the compiler does, and what the 
coder does, is at the heart of much confusion. Pointers that are passed 
as arguments are themselves data, just as much as ints or floats, or (in 
languages that have first-class functions) functions.

-- 
Steven

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#4659

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-04 21:20 +0100
Message-ID	<62p898-ipl.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4651

On Wed, 04 May 2011 14:33:34 -0500, harrismh777
  <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
:  Hans Georg Schaathun wrote:
: > In C it is pass by value, as the pointer
: > is explicit and do whatever you want with the pointer value.
: 
:  You clearly are not a C programmer.

I am not really a programmer period.  I am many things and run
into programming from many more angles than a typical programmer 
does.  And as to C, I no longer use C when I can avoid it (which 
I can most but not all of the time).

A few words are missing though.  C is semantically pass by value.
Always.  But because you have pointers are data object, you can do 
whatever you want with them, and pass a pointer by value.  Thus you
can achieve the effect of transmission by reference or by name, if 
you want to.

:  Most of my C data abstractions use dual circular linked lists of 
:  pointers to structures of pointers. *All* of that is only ever passed 
:  (at least in my programming) as references. My code almost never passes 
:  data by value.

Not if you do not consider pointers as data, but C does, in the sense 
that pointers can be manipulated in the same ways as any other kind of
data.

:  We do not consider passing a pointer as *by value* because its an 
:  address; by definition, that is pass-by-reference. We are not passing 
:  the *value* of the data, we are passing the memory location (the 
:  reference) to the data. Pass by *value* on the other hand actually 
:  places the *value* of the data item on the call stack as a parameter.

That is a useful viewpoint, but it falls a bit short when you need
to explain how to deal with pointers to pointers to pointers.  Pointers
in C are objects.

But mind you, I was not the one to suggested to refer to this 
as pass by value.  I was explaining why it makes more sense to 
do so for C but not for Python.

You simply end up with different wordings if you try to explain how
C works, and how to model data in C.  We can both be right, you know;
we are just addressing the issues at different levels of abstraction.

:  Much of this conversation has more to do with semantics.

Of course.  The concepts are used to explain the semantics of the
languages.  



-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4696

From	Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2011-05-04 22:10 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1182.1304572265.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4651

On Wed, 04 May 2011 14:33:34 -0500, harrismh777
<harrismh777@charter.net> declaimed the following in
gmane.comp.python.general:


> We do not consider passing a pointer as *by value* because its an 
> address; by definition, that is pass-by-reference. We are not passing 

	To most of the world, pass-by-reference means the COMPILER, not the
PROGRAMMER is obtaining and passing the address, and the compiler also
always dereferences the passed "value"... The programmer has no control
over whether to operate on the address or the data referenced by the
address.
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
        wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#4697

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 00:19 -0500
Message-ID	<Irqwp.13567$Vp.4709@newsfe14.iad>
In reply to	#4696

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> >  We do not consider passing a pointer as*by value*  because its an
>> >  address; by definition, that is pass-by-reference. We are not passing
> 	To most of the world, pass-by-reference means the COMPILER, not the
> PROGRAMMER is obtaining and passing the address, and the compiler also
> always dereferences the passed "value"... The programmer has no control
> over whether to operate on the address or the data referenced by the
> address.

Who is "most of the world" ?    Please see:

http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/comphelp/v8v101/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.xlcpp8a.doc%2Flanguage%2Fref%2Fcplr233.htm

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#4731

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 14:25 +0000
Message-ID	<ipuc1m$e4q$5@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4697

On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>>> >  We do not consider passing a pointer as*by value*  because its an
>>> >  address; by definition, that is pass-by-reference. We are not passing
>> 	To most of the world, pass-by-reference means the COMPILER, not the
>> PROGRAMMER is obtaining and passing the address, and the compiler also
>> always dereferences the passed "value"... The programmer has no control
>> over whether to operate on the address or the data referenced by the
>> address.
>
> Who is "most of the world" ?

Pretty much everybody except you.


Please see:

> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/comphelp/v8v101/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.xlcpp8a.doc%2Flanguage%2Fref%2Fcplr233.htm

Yea, I read that.  It doesn't support your argument.  It agrees with
the rest of the world.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I need to discuss
                                  at               BUY-BACK PROVISIONS
                              gmail.com            with at least six studio
                                                   SLEAZEBALLS!!

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#4617

From	sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no>
Date	2011-05-04 07:44 -0700
Message-ID	<a6cd911a-55f8-4ab5-b428-960956287a63@28g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#4549

On May 3, 6:33 pm, Mel <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote:

> def identify_call (a_list):
>   a_list[0] = "If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"
>   a_list = ["If you can see this, you have call-by-reference"]

The first one is a mistake. If it were pass-by-value, it would
assign the string to a list unseen by the caller -- i.e. a copy
of the caller's argument (same value, different object).

But that does not happen. The string is assigned to the list
seen by the caller. Thus we can exclude call-by-value.

The second proposition is correct. This allows us to exclude
pass-by-reference similar to C++, Pascal and Fortran.

Thus:

def identify_call (a_list):
   a_list[0] = "If you cannot see this, you have call-by-value"
   a_list = ["If you can see this, you have call-by-reference"]

Clearly Python has neither call-by-value nor call-by-reference.

Python uses a third mechanism.

Sturla

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#4621

From	Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-04 09:40 -0600
Message-ID	<mailman.1155.1304524764.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4617

On 05/04/2011 08:44 AM, sturlamolden wrote:
> On May 3, 6:33 pm, Mel <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote:
> 
>> def identify_call (a_list):
>>   a_list[0] = "If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"
>>   a_list = ["If you can see this, you have call-by-reference"]
> 
> 
> The first one is a mistake. If it were pass-by-value, it would
> assign the string to a list unseen by the caller -- i.e. a copy
> of the caller's argument (same value, different object).
> <snip>
> Clearly Python has neither call-by-value nor call-by-reference.
> 
> Python uses a third mechanism.

Which is exactly what the code showed.  The first one isn't a mistake.
You just read it wrong.

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#4626

From	sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no>
Date	2011-05-04 09:40 -0700
Message-ID	<29b1bdc8-7bff-445e-b660-53311ef1eb4d@p19g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#4621

On May 4, 5:40 pm, Michael Torrie <torr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Which is exactly what the code showed.  The first one isn't a mistake.
> You just read it wrong.

No, I read "call-by-value" but it does not make a copy. Call-by-value
dictates a deep copy or copy-on-write. Python does neither. Python
pass a handle to the object, not a handle to a copy of the object. If
you want to see call-by-value in practice, take a look at MATLAB,
SciLab or Octave; or consider what C++ copy constructors do in
function calls with value types.

The first one is indeed a mistake. An object has a value. A name binds
to an object, not to a value. If Python did pass-by-value, the string
would be inserted in an object (here: a list) with the same value
(e.g. empty list), it would not modify the same object by which you
called the function.

I think you understand what Python does, but not what call-by-value
would do.

C++ tells you the difference:

// copy constructor is invoked
// x is a copy of the argument's value
// this is call-by-value

void foobar1(Object x);

// no copy is taken
// x is a logical alias of the argument
// this is call-by-reference

void foobar2(Object &x);

// x is a pointer, not an object
// x is a copy of another pointer
// this is similar to Python sematics
// the pointer is passed by value, not the pointee

// in C, this is sometimes called call-by-reference
// as there are no reference types, but it's not

void foobar3(Object *x);

Sturla

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#4632

From	Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu>
Date	2011-05-04 13:15 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1158.1304529355.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4626

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 12:40 PM, sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> wrote:
>
> On May 4, 5:40 pm, Michael Torrie <torr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Which is exactly what the code showed.  The first one isn't a mistake.
> > You just read it wrong.
>
> No, I read "call-by-value" but it does not make a copy. Call-by-value
> dictates a deep copy or copy-on-write. Python does neither. Python
> pass a handle to the object, not a handle to a copy of the object. If
> you want to see call-by-value in practice, take a look at MATLAB,
> SciLab or Octave; or consider what C++ copy constructors do in
> function calls with value types.

You missed a word in the sentence.

"If you can see this, you DON'T have call-by-value"

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#4634

From	sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no>
Date	2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
Message-ID	<4b8ec03d-ccec-4b20-86cc-1373fe5a46a6@p18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#4632

On May 4, 7:15 pm, Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kap...@case.edu> wrote:

> You missed a word in the sentence.
>
> "If you can see this, you DON'T have call-by-value"

Indeed I did, sorry!

Then we agree :)


Sturla

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#4690

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-05 15:48 +1200
Message-ID	<92el16F9kaU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4540

Hans Georg Schaathun wrote:
> Is transmission by name the same as call by object?

No, it's not. With call-by-name, the caller passes a
small function (known as a "thunk") that calculates the
address of the parameter. Every time the callee needs to
refer to the parameter, it evaluates this function.

This allows some neat tricks, but it's massive overkill
for most uses. In later languages, the functionality of
call-by-name has been replaced by the ability to explicitly
pass functions as parameters.

> Anyway, I have never seen anyone counting more than
> three ways of doing this ...

There are other possibilities, such as value-result,
where a local copy is made and its final value is
copied back before returning. I think Fortran is
defined in such a way that this is an acceptable way
of implementing parameter passing. It's also the
only way of getting anything akin to by-reference
over an RPC connection.

But for most situations, by-value and by-reference
cover anything you might want to do. And if you
have a dynamic data model like Python, you don't
even need by-reference.

-- 
Greg

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#4695

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-05 05:58 +0100
Message-ID	<bdn998-96n.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4690

On Thu, 05 May 2011 15:48:51 +1200, Gregory Ewing
  <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
:  No, it's not. With call-by-name, the caller passes a
:  small function (known as a "thunk") that calculates the
:  address of the parameter. Every time the callee needs to
:  refer to the parameter, it evaluates this function.

Well, call-by-name is not the same as transmission by name either.
Transmission by name is what most posters here call call by
reference, and transmission by reference is what this thread calls
object sharing or call by object.

No wonder I started off confused :-)  It is better now.



-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4730

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 14:24 +0000
Message-ID	<ipubv4$e4q$4@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4690

On 2011-05-05, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Hans Georg Schaathun wrote:
>> Is transmission by name the same as call by object?
>
> No, it's not. With call-by-name, the caller passes a
> small function (known as a "thunk") that calculates the
> address of the parameter. Every time the callee needs to
> refer to the parameter, it evaluates this function.
>
> This allows some neat tricks, but it's massive overkill for most
> uses.

It also is a very good source of surprising bugs.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I feel like I'm
                                  at               in a Toilet Bowl with a
                              gmail.com            thumbtack in my forehead!!

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#4542

From	Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org>
Date	2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Message-ID	<87aaf351vk.fsf@xemacs.org>
In reply to	#4380

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> writes:

> "Python's data model is different from other languages"
>
> which is perfectly correct, if you think of C as "other languages". But 
> it's equally correct to say that Python's data model is the same as other 
> languages. As I understand it, Python and Ruby have the same data model. 
> So does Java, so long as you only consider objects[...]
> What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as 
> Python?

Count in Common Lisp and Scheme.

I would say that, considering currently most popular languages and
platforms, Python's data model is in the majority.  It is only the
people coming from a C++ background that tend to be confused by it.

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#4616

From	sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no>
Date	2011-05-04 07:28 -0700
Message-ID	<bbf1ac8c-5780-4188-80b8-83e59826d550@s9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#4542

On May 3, 3:50 pm, Hrvoje Niksic <hnik...@xemacs.org> wrote:

> I would say that, considering currently most popular languages and
> platforms, Python's data model is in the majority.  It is only the
> people coming from a C++ background that tend to be confused by it.

In C++, one will ususally put class variables (objects) on the stack
or in STL containers, and use references instead of pointers. This way
one gets deterministic clean-up, and operator overloading will work as
expected. It is a common beginner mistake for people coming from Java
to use "new" anywhere in C++ code, instead of inside constructors
only. Used properly, C++ has a data model for class variables similar
to Fortran (pass-by-reference). This is complicated by the ability of C
++ to pass-by-value for backwards compatibility with C, inclusing the
use of raw pointers. This hybrid and convoluted data model of C++ is a
common source of confusion and programming mistakes, both for
programmers coming from C++ to Python or C# or vice versa.

Java is somewhat between C and C#, in that it has C semantics for
elementary types (e.g. int and float), but not for objects in general.
In C# and Python, elementary types are immutable objects, byut thet
have no special pass-by-value semantics.

Python has the same data model as Scheme. This includes that code is
an object in Python (in Python that is byte code not source code, thus
no Lisp macros). Variables are names that bind to an object. Objects
are passed as references, but names are not. "Dummy arguments" (to use
Fortran termininology) are bound to the same objects with which the
function was called, but this is not call-by-reference semantics in
the style of Fortran and C++:

In Python, the "=" operator will rebind in the local scope, as in C,
Java and C#. It will not affect anything the the calling scope (as in C
++ and Fortran). Nevertheless, this is not pass-by-value, as no copy
are made. A reference in C++ and Fortran is an alias for the variable
in the calling scope. In Python it is a new variable pointing to the
same value. This is a major difference, but a common source of error
for those that don't understand it.

( for those confused about the claimed behavior of "=" in C++: The
previous paragraph deals with reference variables in C++, not those
passed with C-style pass-by-value sematics. C++ does not always behave
as C, sometimes it behaves like Fortran and Pascal.)

Thus, Python does not pass-by-value like C or C++, nor does it pass-by-
reference like C++ or Fortran.

The semantics of Python, C# and Lisp might be described as "pass-by-
handle" if we need to put a name on it.

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csiph-web

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Contents

#4679

#4741

#4659

#4696

#4697

#4731

#4617

#4621

#4626

#4632

#4634

#4690

#4695

#4730

#4542

#4616