Groups > comp.lang.python > #4380 > unrolled thread

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Started by	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
First post	2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Last post	2011-05-04 07:28 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 176 — 34 participants

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What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-05-01 02:04 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 15:10 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:37 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-05-02 07:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-04 10:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-04 03:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:12 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 14:44 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 00:20 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:18 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:03 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 20:55 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 11:31 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:21 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 19:28 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 20:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-08 02:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-07 23:10 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 22:48 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-09 12:52 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 11:38 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 21:18 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 21:53 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-09 14:29 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2011-05-09 15:41 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-09 10:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-09 13:38 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-09 16:23 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 19:41 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 19:35 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-11 10:47 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-10 15:18 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 21:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 16:28 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 07:23 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:22 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 15:46 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:31 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:50 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 22:37 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 20:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:49 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:12 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:08 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:12 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:30 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? TheSaint <nobody@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-05-07 20:18 +0800
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:31 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 09:40 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:49 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:47 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-05 07:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 12:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:42 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:04 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 06:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-07 16:24 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:54 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 11:16 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-07 23:16 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 16:32 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:49 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-10 03:13 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 14:05 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 15:16 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:27 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:44 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:51 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-05-10 03:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-09 23:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 14:52 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:46 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 21:32 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:06 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:41 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 10:44 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 17:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 07:44 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 21:48 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 13:59 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 13:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-05 14:39 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 11:56 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:13 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:33 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 20:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:35 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 21:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 20:11 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> - 2011-05-05 12:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:01 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:19 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:31 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 15:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 11:29 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 08:01 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-06 13:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 17:39 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 13:13 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 15:12 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-05-04 20:23 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:55 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:21 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 08:09 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:34 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 11:30 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 10:56 -0500
RE: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com> - 2011-05-05 18:27 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:09 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 07:56 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:11 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:00 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:03 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:12 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-07 12:03 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:48 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-05 22:24 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:18 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-05 10:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 18:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 19:06 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-06 14:25 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 16:22 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:51 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:20 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-04 22:10 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 00:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:25 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:44 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 13:15 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 15:48 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 05:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:24 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:28 -0700

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#4380 — What other languages use the same data model as Python?

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Subject	What other languages use the same data model as Python?
Message-ID	<4dbd1dbf$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also 
known as "call by sharing"). I trust I don't need to define my terms, but 
just in case:

http://effbot.org/zone/call-by-object.htm
http://effbot.org/zone/python-objects.htm


Now, this is different from languages like C and Pascal, which is based 
on variables, or Forth, which explicitly manipulates a stack. Quite 
often, when people want to impress upon others that Python is not C, they 
will say:

"Python's data model is different from other languages"

which is perfectly correct, if you think of C as "other languages". But 
it's equally correct to say that Python's data model is the same as other 
languages. As I understand it, Python and Ruby have the same data model. 
So does Java, so long as you only consider objects and ignore unboxed 
native values. I believe (but could be wrong) that another language of 
about the same vintage as Python, Emerald, also uses the same model. 
That's not surprising, because I believe that Emerald (just like Python) 
was strongly influenced by CLU.

What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as 
Python?



-- 
Steven

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#4383

From	Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1030.1304240436.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4380

I think ruby does

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also
> known as "call by sharing"). I trust I don't need to define my terms, but
> just in case:
>
> http://effbot.org/zone/call-by-object.htm
> http://effbot.org/zone/python-objects.htm
>
>
> Now, this is different from languages like C and Pascal, which is based
> on variables, or Forth, which explicitly manipulates a stack. Quite
> often, when people want to impress upon others that Python is not C, they
> will say:
>
> "Python's data model is different from other languages"
>
> which is perfectly correct, if you think of C as "other languages". But
> it's equally correct to say that Python's data model is the same as other
> languages. As I understand it, Python and Ruby have the same data model.
> So does Java, so long as you only consider objects and ignore unboxed
> native values. I believe (but could be wrong) that another language of
> about the same vintage as Python, Emerald, also uses the same model.
> That's not surprising, because I believe that Emerald (just like Python)
> was strongly influenced by CLU.
>
> What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as
> Python?
>
>
>
> --
> Steven
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

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#4385

From	Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com>
Date	2011-05-01 02:04 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1031.1304240663.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4380

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 1:45 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also
> known as "call by sharing").
<snip>
> As I understand it, Python and Ruby have the same data model.
> So does Java, so long as you only consider objects and ignore unboxed
> native values. I believe (but could be wrong) that another language of
> about the same vintage as Python, Emerald, also uses the same model.
> That's not surprising, because I believe that Emerald (just like Python)
> was strongly influenced by CLU.
>
> What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as
> Python?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_sharing
, besides those you already listed:
Scheme, OCaml, AppleScript, and possibly VB, among "many other languages".

I can't personally vouch for the accuracy of this.

Cheers,
Chris

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#4410

From	Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Date	2011-05-01 15:10 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1043.1304277025.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4380

On 5/1/2011 4:45 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object"
> (also known as "call by sharing"). I trust I don't need to define my
> terms, but just in case:
>
> http://effbot.org/zone/call-by-object.htm
> http://effbot.org/zone/python-objects.htm
>
>
> Now, this is different from languages like C and Pascal, which is
> based on variables,

Or Fortran or Basic (and I suspect, but do not know, Algol) and other
descendents: Ada?, PL/1?). In statistical languages, user-defined names
typically refer to typed data columns (eash a set of storage locations) 
or user-defined functions.

> "Python's data model is different from other languages"
>
> which is perfectly correct, if you think of C as "other languages".
> But it's equally correct to say that Python's data model is the same
> as other languages.

You defined Python's 'data model' as having two aspects: 'name binding' 
and 'call by object'. A language could match one but not the other. I 
believe Lisps have name-binding, but I know not all only have 
call-object. Macro calls (and earlier predecessors) are call-by-code-text.

  As I understand it, Python and Ruby have the same
> data model. So does Java, so long as you only consider objects and
> ignore unboxed native values. I believe (but could be wrong) that
> another language of about the same vintage as Python, Emerald, also
> uses the same model. That's not surprising, because I believe that
> Emerald (just like Python) was strongly influenced by CLU.

While Guido does not, that I know of, credit CLU as Python's direct 
inspiration, I think it (and Barbara Liskov) as the originator of 
Python's data model. I believe she thought of the call-by-object 
semantics as something of an innovation.

> What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as
> Python?

Natural languages. That is why I think it is better to think of Python 
as an algorithm language or information-object manipulation language 
rather than as just a linear-memory machine language. A linear memory 
with bytes addressed from 0 to max-int or max-long is an explicit part 
of the definition of assembly languages and C. It is no part of the 
definition of Python.

Nice begin-a-thread post.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#4423

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-02 10:37 +1200
Message-ID	<9265kvFv8gU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4410

Terry Reedy wrote:

> While Guido does not, that I know of, credit CLU as Python's direct 
> inspiration, I think it (and Barbara Liskov) as the originator of 
> Python's data model. I believe she thought of the call-by-object 
> semantics as something of an innovation.

I don't think she can claim credit for that, seeing as as Lisp
was built around it. She may have invented the *term* "call by
object" (unnecessarily, in my opinion) but the idea wasn't new.

-- 
Greg

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#4450

From	Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
Date	2011-05-02 07:45 +0000
Message-ID	<slrnirso8e.gtj.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>
In reply to	#4410

On Sun, 2011-05-01, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 5/1/2011 4:45 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
...
>> What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as
>> Python?
>
> Natural languages. That is why I think it is better to think of Python 
> as an algorithm language or information-object manipulation language 
> rather than as just a linear-memory machine language.A linear memory 
> with bytes addressed from 0 to max-int or max-long is an explicit part 
> of the definition of assembly languages and C. It is no part of the 
> definition of Python.

It's not part of the definition of C either -- C supports segmented
memory (pre-386 Intel) and separate code/data address spaces. (Even if
most C users tend not to think of it that way.)

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .  .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#4478

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Message-ID	<ipmakd$nec$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4450

On 2011-05-02, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-05-01, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> On 5/1/2011 4:45 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> ...
>>> What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as
>>> Python?
>>
>> Natural languages. That is why I think it is better to think of Python 
>> as an algorithm language or information-object manipulation language 
>> rather than as just a linear-memory machine language.A linear memory 
>> with bytes addressed from 0 to max-int or max-long is an explicit part 
>> of the definition of assembly languages and C. It is no part of the 
>> definition of Python.
>
> It's not part of the definition of C either -- C supports segmented
> memory (pre-386 Intel) and separate code/data address spaces. (Even if
> most C users tend not to think of it that way.)

Indeed.  All the C compilers I used for many years (on both PDP-11 and
80286 under Unix) assumed a segmented memory space with separate data
and text addresses spaces.  More recently, the same can be said for
AVR and many other Harvard architecture machines.

The "linear memory with bytes addressed from 0 to max-int or max-long"
thing is merely an implicit assumption made by bad C programmers.

-- 
Grant

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#4421

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Message-ID	<9265d8FtkqU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4380

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also 
> known as "call by sharing").

It can be summed up in a less jargony way by saying that all
data is stored in heap-allocated objects, and variables refer
to objects rather than containing them directly. Everything
else follows from that.

> What other languages use the same, or mostly similar, data model as 
> Python?

Pretty much any dynamically-typed language: Lisp, Scheme,
Smalltalk, Snobol, Icon, Postscript, Ruby, Lua, ...

Some languages have it for some data types but not others.
Java, VB, Objective-C come to mind.

-- 
Greg

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#4430

From	Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Date	2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1051.1304300578.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4421

On 5/1/2011 6:33 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also
>> known as "call by sharing").
>
> It can be summed up in a less jargony way by saying that all
> data is stored in heap-allocated objects,

This is incomprehensible jargon to some; is only (partly) true of 
(typical) machine-implementations; and seems not to be true of all 
objects. I believe that for CPython, builtin objects, including the 
fixed arrray of ints from -5 to 256, are allocated in another data 
segment (more CS jargon, which is irrelavant to human interpreters).

Evidence 1:
 >>> id(int)
505285072
 >>> id(str)
505233232
 >>> id(1)
505493792
 >>> id(-5)
505493696

This appears to be initialized data segment. (Someone else could take a 
white box approach and look at the source. ;-)

 >>> id(333333)
16512288
 >>> id('a')
11227616

This is heap.

Evidence 2:
Some error messages use 'heap type' to mean 'Python-coded class'

 >>> 1 .__class__ = str
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<pyshell#8>", line 1, in <module>
     1 .__class__ = str
TypeError: __class__ assignment: only for heap types

http://bugs.python.org/issue4600

 > and variables refer  to objects rather than containing them directly.
 > Everything else follows from that.

Would you say 'names refer to objects rather than containing them 
directly'? Surely not. Using 'name' rather than the hugely overloaded 
tern 'variable' automatically avoids certain misunderstandings.

A good summary might be "Python manipulates objects that are accessed 
through literals, names, and expressions."
-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#4449

From	Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1063.1304321303.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4380

On Sun, 01 May 2011 15:10:11 -0400, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:


> Or Fortran or Basic (and I suspect, but do not know, Algol) and other
> descendents: Ada?, PL/1?). In statistical languages, user-defined names
> typically refer to typed data columns (eash a set of storage locations) 
> or user-defined functions.
>
	As I recall from my programming language design class (only and
intro, it was so small we met in a meeting room rather than classroom),
ALGOL was described as "call by name"; somehow the supplied argument was
"plugged into" the parameter usages... So if one did something like
	call X(a+3)

and the routine was define as
	X(m)

ever use of "m" in the routine evaluated the "a+3" /at that time/...
Unlike most other language which would evaluate "a+3" in the caller's
space and (FORTRAN: pass a reference to an anonymous memory space
holding the result; C: put the result itself on the stack; Python: bind
"m" to the object created by evaluating the expression)
 
> You defined Python's 'data model' as having two aspects: 'name binding' 
> and 'call by object'. A language could match one but not the other. I 

	From my viewpoint -- there is no difference in Python...

	The parameter name, defined in the routine declaration, is bound to
the object given as the argument in the call...

-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
        wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#4460

From	Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Message-ID	<Xns9ED962F4EDC9Bduncanbooth@127.0.0.1>
In reply to	#4449

Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> As I recall from my programming language design class (only and
> intro, it was so small we met in a meeting room rather than classroom),
> ALGOL was described as "call by name";

It is true that Algol had 'call by name', but (at least the Algol-W that I 
learned) also supported 'call by value' and 'call by reference'. The danger 
of course was that call by name was the default mechanism so you could end 
up using it accidentally.

I remember we had one class where we had to work out (by hand) the output 
of a program which used call by name to alias I and A[I] in some recursive 
calls. Not nice. Fortunately even at that time it was mostly being taught 
as an oddity; real programming was of course done in Algol 68C or BCPL.

-- 
Duncan Booth http://kupuguy.blogspot.com

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#4540

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Message-ID	<sk9598-gli.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4380

On 01 May 2011 08:45:51 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
  <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
:  Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also 
:  known as "call by sharing"). I trust I don't need to define my terms, but 
:  just in case:

Without having the time to get my hand around exactly what this means:
Simula has three ways of transmitting arguments, namely transmission
by name, by value, and by reference.  Is transmission by name the same
as call by object?  Anyway, I have never seen anyone counting more than
three ways of doing this ...


-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4544

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Message-ID	<ipp4l0$lvv$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4540

On 2011-05-03, Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> wrote:
> On 01 May 2011 08:45:51 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
>  <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>:  Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also 
>:  known as "call by sharing"). I trust I don't need to define my terms, but 
>:  just in case:
>
> Without having the time to get my hand around exactly what this means:
> Simula has three ways of transmitting arguments, namely transmission
> by name, by value, and by reference.  Is transmission by name the same
> as call by object?

No.  For example, assume the argument is a[i].

In call by object, the expression a[i] is evaluated (i is evaluated,
and then used as an index to determine the object that is the ith
element of a).  The callee's argument name is then bound to that
object.

In call by name, every time the callee references the argument name,
the expression a[i] is evaluated anew.  If the value of 'i' or the
binding of 'a' has changed since the time of the function call, then
the callee's argument now refers to a different object than it did at
the time of the the function call.  It's rather like a macro language
(e.g. cpp) which merely performs a textual substitution of the 
argument name (the difference between pass-by-name and macro
substitution is that the context of the argument evaluation is
different).

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Well, I'm INVISIBLE
                                  at               AGAIN ... I might as well
                              gmail.com            pay a visit to the LADIES
                                                   ROOM ...

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#4545

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc01d4a$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#4540

On Tue, 03 May 2011 13:39:24 +0100, Hans Georg Schaathun wrote:

> On 01 May 2011 08:45:51 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
>   <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> :  Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also
> :  known as "call by sharing"). I trust I don't need to define my terms,
> but :  just in case:
> 
> Without having the time to get my hand around exactly what this means:
> Simula has three ways of transmitting arguments, namely transmission by
> name, by value, and by reference.  Is transmission by name the same as
> call by object?  Anyway, I have never seen anyone counting more than
> three ways of doing this ...

You get credit for not falling into the trap of thinking there are only 
two, call by reference and call by value, but there are *many* more than 
just three. Wikipedia lists at least 13:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy


See also: http://effbot.org/zone/call-by-object.htm



-- 
Steven

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#4574

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Message-ID	<sj7698-lkj.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4545

On 03 May 2011 15:20:42 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
  <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
:  You get credit for not falling into the trap of thinking there are only 
:  two, call by reference and call by value, but there are *many* more than 
:  just three. Wikipedia lists at least 13:

Ah.  Those 13 approaches aren't all mutually exclusive though.

-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4549

From	Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com>
Date	2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Message-ID	<ippao9$mjr$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to	#4540

Hans Georg Schaathun wrote:

> On 01 May 2011 08:45:51 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
>   <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> :  Python uses a data model of "name binding" and "call by object" (also
> :  known as "call by sharing"). I trust I don't need to define my terms,
> :  but just in case:
> 
> Without having the time to get my hand around exactly what this means:
> Simula has three ways of transmitting arguments, namely transmission
> by name, by value, and by reference.  Is transmission by name the same
> as call by object?  Anyway, I have never seen anyone counting more than
> three ways of doing this ...

To illustrate the neither-fish-nor-fowl nature of Python calls:

mwilson@tecumseth:~$ python
Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 16 2010, 13:09:56) 
[GCC 4.4.3] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> def identify_call (a_list):
...   a_list[0] = "If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"
...   a_list = ["If you can see this, you have call-by-reference"]
... 
>>> my_list = [None]
>>> identify_call (my_list)
>>> my_list
["If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"]



so it's neither call-by-value nor call-by-reference as (e.g.) C or PL/I 
programming would have it (don't know about Simula, so I am off topic, 
actually.)  It's not so wrong to think of Python's parameter handling as 
ordinary assignments from outer namespaces to an inner namespace.

	Mel.

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#4553

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Message-ID	<ippbsa$qsa$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4549

On 2011-05-03, Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> wrote:

> To illustrate the neither-fish-nor-fowl nature of Python calls:
>
> mwilson@tecumseth:~$ python
> Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 16 2010, 13:09:56) 
> [GCC 4.4.3] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> def identify_call (a_list):
> ...   a_list[0] = "If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"
> ...   a_list = ["If you can see this, you have call-by-reference"]
> ... 
>>>> my_list = [None]
>>>> identify_call (my_list)
>>>> my_list
> ["If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"]
>
> so it's neither call-by-value nor call-by-reference as (e.g.) C or PL/I 
> programming would have it (don't know about Simula, so I am off topic, 
> actually.)  It's not so wrong to think of Python's parameter handling as 
> ordinary assignments from outer namespaces to an inner namespace.

As long as you think of "ordinary assignments" the Python way and not
the C or PL/I way. :)

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! So this is what it
                                  at               feels like to be potato
                              gmail.com            salad

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#4573

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Message-ID	<876698-vjj.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4549

On Tue, 03 May 2011 12:33:15 -0400, Mel
  <mwilson@the-wire.com> wrote:
:  mwilson@tecumseth:~$ python
:  Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 16 2010, 13:09:56) 
:  [GCC 4.4.3] on linux2
:  Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
: >>> def identify_call (a_list):
:  ...   a_list[0] = "If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"
:  ...   a_list = ["If you can see this, you have call-by-reference"]
:  ... 
: >>> my_list = [None]
: >>> identify_call (my_list)
: >>> my_list
:  ["If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"]

This looks like plain old transmission by reference to me.
I.e. the functions get a reference to an object and make any
change to the object.  Since the caller and the callee refer 
to the same object, changes made by the callee are seen by
the caller.  However, the reference cannot be changed.

With transmission by name, you would get what you call
call-by-reference; i.e. the variable passed as an argument is
changed to refer to a completely new object.  In simula this 
is used for output parameters.

And transmission by value is of course a copy of the data.

:  so it's neither call-by-value nor call-by-reference as (e.g.) C or PL/I 

I don't know PL/I; that's the sort of thing my mother deals with.
Simula explicitely offerts all three.  In C you can get each of the 
three, by using pointers explicitely in different ways.

Whether you use C or Simula, transmission by reference, that is what
python appears to be doing, seems to be the normal approach for any
composite data type.  Thus python does not seem to do anything out of
the ordinary at all.

-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4578

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1125.1304460046.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4573

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> wrote:
> This looks like plain old transmission by reference to me.
> I.e. the functions get a reference to an object and make any
> change to the object.

"Reference" being exactly what's passed around. There are now two
references to that object. Since names always contain references (not
objects), it's very easy to share mutable objects
(lists/dictionaries/etc). There's an easy way for a caller or callee
to guarantee that a mutable is safe - just slice it:

identify_call(my_list[:])

That gives the called function a shallow copy of the list, which it
can modify to its heart's content, but the original list isn't
changed. Callee can do the same, with an assignment command at the top
of the function (a_list=a_list[:]).

Chris Angelico

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#4605

From	Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Message-ID	<77f64071-b288-404c-8280-b2c61ba77f06@n10g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#4549

> To illustrate the neither-fish-nor-fowl nature of Python calls:
>
> mwilson@tecumseth:~$ python
> Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 16 2010, 13:09:56)
> [GCC 4.4.3] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.>>> def identify_call (a_list):
>
> ...   a_list[0] = "If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"
> ...   a_list = ["If you can see this, you have call-by-reference"]
> ...>>> my_list = [None]
> >>> identify_call (my_list)
> >>> my_list
>
> ["If you can see this, you don't have call-by-value"]
>
> so it's neither call-by-value nor call-by-reference as (e.g.) C or PL/I
> programming would have it (don't know about Simula, so I am off topic,
> actually.)  It's not so wrong to think of Python's parameter handling as
> ordinary assignments from outer namespaces to an inner namespace.
>
>         Mel.

Eh, that example doesn't say what you think it does. It has the same
behavior in C: http://ideone.com/Fq09N . Python is pass-by-value in a
meaningful sense, it's just that by saying that we say that the values
being passed are references/pointers. This is maybe one level of
abstraction below what's ideal, but Scheme, Java, etc. share this
terminology. (Ruby calls it pass-by-reference AFAIK. Whatever, a rose
by any other name...)

Devin Jeanpierre

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csiph-web

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Contents

#4380 — What other languages use the same data model as Python?

#4383

#4385

#4410

#4423

#4450

#4478

#4421

#4430

#4449

#4460

#4540

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