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Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python?

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python?
Date	2011-05-04 11:56 +0100
Organization	University of Bergen
Message-ID	<gvn798-6tk.ln1@svn.schaathun.net> (permalink)
References	<4dbd1dbf$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <sk9598-gli.ln1@svn.schaathun.net> <ippao9$mjr$1@speranza.aioe.org> <77f64071-b288-404c-8280-b2c61ba77f06@n10g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>

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On Wed, 4 May 2011 02:56:28 -0700 (PDT), Devin Jeanpierre
  <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> wrote:
:  Eh, that example doesn't say what you think it does. It has the same
:  behavior in C: http://ideone.com/Fq09N . Python is pass-by-value in a
:  meaningful sense, it's just that by saying that we say that the values
:  being passed are references/pointers.

No, Python is not pass-by-value, because the pointer is abstracted 
away.  You transmit arguments by reference only and cannot access the
value of the reference.  In C it is pass by value, as the pointer 
is explicit and do whatever you want with the pointer value.  

So, even though you have the same mechanism in C and Python, they
do not have the same name.  In the low-level C you only have pass
by value, but you can use the pointer syntax to do whatever you want
within pass by value.  In the higher-level python, you do not have 
the flexibility provided by explicit pointers, so you need to explain
the semantics without having a pointer concept defined a priori.

:                                        This is maybe one level of
:  abstraction below what's ideal, but Scheme, Java, etc. share this
:  terminology. (Ruby calls it pass-by-reference AFAIK. Whatever, a rose
:  by any other name...)

Now, this is confusing, because the terminology is not universal and
hardly intuitive.  What is called transmission by reference in a
Simula context (Bjørn Kirkerud's textbook on OO Programming with Simula
for instance) is called object sharing in Wikipedia.  What Wikipedia
calls call by reference is transmission by name in the Simula context.

-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
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Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-04 10:51 +0000
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Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:12 -0700
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Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:18 -0700
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Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
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Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:28 -0700

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