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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #12296 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000 |
| Last post | 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 167 — 14 participants |
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Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000
Page 5 of 9 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 Next page →
| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <jin86o$a91$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12547 |
On 02/29/2012 05:44 PM, Novice wrote: > Martin Gregorie<martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in > news:jimfg8$di4$1@localhost.localdomain: > >> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:25:55 +0000, Novice wrote: >> >>> I envy you for being fluent in both C and Java (and probably >>> others!). I have other languages but they're pretty much all very >>> rusty from lack of use. Mind you, I have found that I can relearn >>> things pretty quickly even after a long gap. I had occasion to look >>> at a COBOL program a few years back and found it very familiar. Mind >>> you, I doubt I'd say the same about C if I were to try that again ;-) >>> >> Just about all I use these days are C and Java plus a few scripting >> languages (awk, PHP, bash shell scripting and Perl if you insist). In >> another life I wrote much more COBOL than was good for me, so could >> probably get up to speed fast with that too. There are a raft of >> others I used for single projects (PL/1) or that were specific to >> particular hardware (TAL, PL/9, filetab, RPG III and various >> assemblers). >> >> I'm not sure its useful to know a lot of languages: idioms often don't >> transfer don't at all well and if you're not careful you can end up >> writing the nasty sort of code best summarized as "a Real Programmer >> can write FORTRAN in any language". I'm sure that it's useful to know several languages. > I'm inclined to agree with you, Martin. I feel good about knowing at > least one language that is very widely known and used, Java. And I can Not enough. > always fall back on COBOL in a pinch ;-) Some of the others, even if I > refreshed myself on them, would be of no use anywhere. I don't imagine > CSP is used anywhere any more. Or whatever 4GL Online Express was part > of. ;-) I learned SNOBOL once, at university. No practical use to it whatsoever. I learned Prolog for the Hell of it. Never made a dime from it. Studied a whole book on natural language processing with Prolog. Never got f**k-all for that professionally. Learned enough LISP to know that its fanboys are drug addicts. No one's ever offered to make that investment pay off, not directly. Did I waste my time? Could it be that learning multiple languages, and how the hardware works, and how to freaking build an application such that it actually runs for someone for a change, and all those other foundational, below-the-surface-part-of-the-iceberg skills have indeed made me the supergenius amazing developer that I am? Could there be some gestalt effect that polyglot programming skills elicit? Inquiring minds want to know. > I wonder if any employers consider it a mitigating factor if you know > several languages if you are applying to them and Java is not their shop > language (or one of them)? Or do they just drop you from consideration > immediately and not even consider training you in their language? My I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I didn't know until I started the job. How long does it take to learn a computer language? It took me about a week to learn Java. Less for Python, assuming you can say that I've learned it just because I can write effective programs in it. (I haven't, actually.) They gave me three class sessions in college to learn Pascal; I never showed up for the third session. Didn't need to. C I just picked up on the job because it looked interesting. Basically every language I've used professionally I learned on the job, and every language I've learned outside of work I have not been paid to use. > impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list of > qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. And they > don't seem to want to have to spend any money training anyone for > anything. That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill. > I was talking to a friend who does volunteer work at a hospital and she > was furious. She said even getting a job as a porter in a hospital - > basically someone who pushes carts around and can apparently be fully > trained in 20 minutes - requires a community college diploma with 8 > required credits before they can get that diploma. She spoke of > "credentialism run amuck". What next: a university degree in Chemical > Engineering to be able to make coffee at Starbucks?.... Why would that be bad? America is a woefully under-educated nation. People who complain about having to learn are idiots. What's worse, they're idiots on purpose. Hospitals are places where people put their lives in your hands. I hope to heck everyone in a hospital is educated. I don't care if you are swabbing toilets. It minimizes the chances that they will steal drugs, or do something stupid to hurt the sick people. Your friend is a schmuck. "Credentials run amuck [sic]" is the excuse of a lazy person. If they don't want to put in the effort to get qualified for a good job, they can just go back to asking, "Would you like fries with that?" -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jiop4m$vv1$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #12552 |
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:24:11 -0800, Lew wrote: > > I'm sure that it's useful to know several languages. > Its indirectly useful: keeps your mind flexible and maintains its ability to learn. I think its useful to have experience that covers the range from totally unstructured languages (assembler, BASIC) through the middle ground (COBOL, Fortran) to block structured ones (Algol, Pascal, C and curly bracket languages)) and OO, if only because it makes learning a new language easier. Knowing a few scripted languages is also useful, though more in the *NIX world, where you really need to know shell scripting, plus the basics of awk and/or Perl. Familiarity with PHP and (maybe) Python is also useful. I admit my prejudices show here: I really don't much like Perl or Python. OTOH I do like 4GLs and report generators despite their often limiting and (often) BASIC-like syntax because you can write useful programs so fast and in so few lines. > Did I waste my time? > No. See above. > Could it be that learning multiple languages, and how the hardware > works, and how to freaking build an application such that it actually > runs for someone for a change, and all those other foundational, > A basic understanding of hardware and, by extension, a non-superficial knowledge of at least one OS can be very helpful for trouble shooting. Related to this, if you use databases you need a fairly deep understanding of SQL - deep enough to understand how the DBMS, the schema and SQL queries interact and how to use this knowledge to sort out performance problems for the DBMS(es) you use. All too many relational database 'designers' and the programmers working for them haven't the faintest clue about why a particular query has terrible performance with the DBMS they're using and probably know nothing about using its performance analysis tools or why a poorly designed schema's performance can be OK with test data but crash through the floor when faced with production data volumes. > I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I didn't > know until I started the job. > I've lost count of the projects I've done on that basis and the essential skills for the project that I've picked up on the job. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA009D52FD2122jpnasty@94.75.214.39> |
| In reply to | #12564 |
Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in news:jiop4m$vv1$1@localhost.localdomain: > On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:24:11 -0800, Lew wrote: > >> >> I'm sure that it's useful to know several languages. >> > Its indirectly useful: keeps your mind flexible and maintains its > ability to learn. > > I think its useful to have experience that covers the range from > totally unstructured languages (assembler, BASIC) through the middle > ground (COBOL, Fortran) to block structured ones (Algol, Pascal, C and > curly bracket languages)) and OO, if only because it makes learning a > new language easier. > > Knowing a few scripted languages is also useful, though more in the > *NIX world, where you really need to know shell scripting, plus the > basics of awk and/or Perl. Familiarity with PHP and (maybe) Python is > also useful. I admit my prejudices show here: I really don't much like > Perl or Python. > > OTOH I do like 4GLs and report generators despite their often limiting > and (often) BASIC-like syntax because you can write useful programs so > fast and in so few lines. > >> Did I waste my time? >> > No. See above. > >> Could it be that learning multiple languages, and how the hardware >> works, and how to freaking build an application such that it actually >> runs for someone for a change, and all those other foundational, >> > A basic understanding of hardware and, by extension, a non-superficial > knowledge of at least one OS can be very helpful for trouble shooting. > > Related to this, if you use databases you need a fairly deep > understanding of SQL - deep enough to understand how the DBMS, the > schema and SQL queries interact and how to use this knowledge to sort > out performance problems for the DBMS(es) you use. All too many > relational database 'designers' and the programmers working for them > haven't the faintest clue about why a particular query has terrible > performance with the DBMS they're using and probably know nothing > about using its performance analysis tools or why a poorly designed > schema's performance can be OK with test data but crash through the > floor when faced with production data volumes. > >> I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I didn't >> know until I started the job. >> > I've lost count of the projects I've done on that basis and the > essential skills for the project that I've picked up on the job. > Another guy whose been hired for jobs where he didn't have the core skill! How did YOU manage that, Martin? I've already asked Lew.... -- Novice
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jirso8$q76$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #12575 |
On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 01:52:19 +0000, Novice wrote: > Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in > news:jiop4m$vv1$1@localhost.localdomain: > >> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:24:11 -0800, Lew wrote: >> >> >>> I'm sure that it's useful to know several languages. >>> >> Its indirectly useful: keeps your mind flexible and maintains its >> ability to learn. >> >> I think its useful to have experience that covers the range from >> totally unstructured languages (assembler, BASIC) through the middle >> ground (COBOL, Fortran) to block structured ones (Algol, Pascal, C and >> curly bracket languages)) and OO, if only because it makes learning a >> new language easier. >> >> Knowing a few scripted languages is also useful, though more in the >> *NIX world, where you really need to know shell scripting, plus the >> basics of awk and/or Perl. Familiarity with PHP and (maybe) Python is >> also useful. I admit my prejudices show here: I really don't much like >> Perl or Python. >> >> OTOH I do like 4GLs and report generators despite their often limiting >> and (often) BASIC-like syntax because you can write useful programs so >> fast and in so few lines. >> >>> Did I waste my time? >>> >> No. See above. >> >>> Could it be that learning multiple languages, and how the hardware >>> works, and how to freaking build an application such that it actually >>> runs for someone for a change, and all those other foundational, >>> >> A basic understanding of hardware and, by extension, a non-superficial >> knowledge of at least one OS can be very helpful for trouble shooting. >> >> Related to this, if you use databases you need a fairly deep >> understanding of SQL - deep enough to understand how the DBMS, the >> schema and SQL queries interact and how to use this knowledge to sort >> out performance problems for the DBMS(es) you use. All too many >> relational database 'designers' and the programmers working for them >> haven't the faintest clue about why a particular query has terrible >> performance with the DBMS they're using and probably know nothing about >> using its performance analysis tools or why a poorly designed schema's >> performance can be OK with test data but crash through the floor when >> faced with production data volumes. >> >>> I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I didn't >>> know until I started the job. >>> >> I've lost count of the projects I've done on that basis and the >> essential skills for the project that I've picked up on the job. >> > Another guy whose been hired for jobs where he didn't have the core > skill! How did YOU manage that, Martin? I've already asked Lew.... > Quite simple: I was working for a large and technically very competent software house (My first business manager there designed CHAPS, the UK secure interbank network and the first of its type anywhere - the division I was in implemented quite a few national banking networks off the back of CHAPS). I remember him saying (in the pub, our common room) that he didn't care what a potential hire knew: he hired brain power, not existing knowledge. We assembled project core teams at the bid stage: the bid manager would become the project manager if we won the job and the members of the bid team became key members of the project. The bid team's project estimates and costings were subject to rigorous review by management, who made the bid/no-bid decision, so if we won the job, the bid team was expected to deliver it. Naturally, we took prior knowledge of team members (and their ability to pick up new skills) into the bid costings and pulled in expertise as needed. This approach worked really well but demanded a high level of technical experience in the management team: it all fell apart when the founders retired and let salesmen into top managerial positions. The result was that a lot of top tekkies left or were made redundant and, though the company still exists, it is now not much more than a more or less average outsourcing outfit. During its best years the company operated as an association of small (20-40 members) divisions, each having a known expertise and operating as a small independent company with its own budget, targets and sales people: divisions that grew beyond these limits were split. As a result, everybody knew their peers, coherent project teams were assembled fairly easily and team members were borrowed from other divisions and groups as needed. I believe (was told) that Boeing's internal structure was similar (as was IBM's - I know this from personal contacts) when both were growing vigorously. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA00D6D680BDFBjpnasty@94.75.214.39> |
| In reply to | #12613 |
Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in news:jirso8$q76$1@localhost.localdomain: > On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 01:52:19 +0000, Novice wrote: > >> Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in >> news:jiop4m$vv1$1@localhost.localdomain: >> >>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:24:11 -0800, Lew wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I'm sure that it's useful to know several languages. >>>> >>> Its indirectly useful: keeps your mind flexible and maintains its >>> ability to learn. >>> >>> I think its useful to have experience that covers the range from >>> totally unstructured languages (assembler, BASIC) through the middle >>> ground (COBOL, Fortran) to block structured ones (Algol, Pascal, C >>> and curly bracket languages)) and OO, if only because it makes >>> learning a new language easier. >>> >>> Knowing a few scripted languages is also useful, though more in the >>> *NIX world, where you really need to know shell scripting, plus the >>> basics of awk and/or Perl. Familiarity with PHP and (maybe) Python >>> is also useful. I admit my prejudices show here: I really don't much >>> like Perl or Python. >>> >>> OTOH I do like 4GLs and report generators despite their often >>> limiting and (often) BASIC-like syntax because you can write useful >>> programs so fast and in so few lines. >>> >>>> Did I waste my time? >>>> >>> No. See above. >>> >>>> Could it be that learning multiple languages, and how the hardware >>>> works, and how to freaking build an application such that it >>>> actually runs for someone for a change, and all those other >>>> foundational, >>>> >>> A basic understanding of hardware and, by extension, a >>> non-superficial knowledge of at least one OS can be very helpful for >>> trouble shooting. >>> >>> Related to this, if you use databases you need a fairly deep >>> understanding of SQL - deep enough to understand how the DBMS, the >>> schema and SQL queries interact and how to use this knowledge to >>> sort out performance problems for the DBMS(es) you use. All too many >>> relational database 'designers' and the programmers working for them >>> haven't the faintest clue about why a particular query has terrible >>> performance with the DBMS they're using and probably know nothing >>> about using its performance analysis tools or why a poorly designed >>> schema's performance can be OK with test data but crash through the >>> floor when faced with production data volumes. >>> >>>> I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I >>>> didn't know until I started the job. >>>> >>> I've lost count of the projects I've done on that basis and the >>> essential skills for the project that I've picked up on the job. >>> >> Another guy whose been hired for jobs where he didn't have the core >> skill! How did YOU manage that, Martin? I've already asked Lew.... >> > Quite simple: I was working for a large and technically very competent > software house (My first business manager there designed CHAPS, the UK > secure interbank network and the first of its type anywhere - the > division I was in implemented quite a few national banking networks > off the back of CHAPS). I remember him saying (in the pub, our common > room) that he didn't care what a potential hire knew: he hired brain > power, not existing knowledge. We assembled project core teams at the > bid stage: the bid manager would become the project manager if we won > the job and the members of the bid team became key members of the > project. The bid team's project estimates and costings were subject to > rigorous review by management, who made the bid/no-bid decision, so if > we won the job, the bid team was expected to deliver it. Naturally, we > took prior knowledge of team members (and their ability to pick up new > skills) into the bid costings and pulled in expertise as needed. This > approach worked really well but demanded a high level of technical > experience in the management team: it all fell apart when the founders > retired and let salesmen into top managerial positions. The result was > that a lot of top tekkies left or were made redundant and, though the > company still exists, it is now not much more than a more or less > average outsourcing outfit. > > During its best years the company operated as an association of small > (20-40 members) divisions, each having a known expertise and operating > as a small independent company with its own budget, targets and sales > people: divisions that grew beyond these limits were split. As a > result, everybody knew their peers, coherent project teams were > assembled fairly easily and team members were borrowed from other > divisions and groups as needed. I believe (was told) that Boeing's > internal structure was similar (as was IBM's - I know this from > personal contacts) when both were growing vigorously. > > The key thing is that you were already known by your colleagues and they were confident that you would pick up the required skills in a timely manner; you weren't an unknown outsider. That makes perfect sense. I thought you were saying that you had gotten into a firm where no one knew you and had somehow persuaded them that you could learn the shop language in no time flat. I was wondering how you'd managed that ;-) -- Novice
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| From | Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jj3fuv$qnb$1@localhost.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #12710 |
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:38:30 +0000, Novice wrote: > Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in > news:jirso8$q76$1@localhost.localdomain: > >> On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 01:52:19 +0000, Novice wrote: >> >>> Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in >>> news:jiop4m$vv1$1@localhost.localdomain: >>> >>>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:24:11 -0800, Lew wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm sure that it's useful to know several languages. >>>>> >>>> Its indirectly useful: keeps your mind flexible and maintains its >>>> ability to learn. >>>> >>>> I think its useful to have experience that covers the range from >>>> totally unstructured languages (assembler, BASIC) through the middle >>>> ground (COBOL, Fortran) to block structured ones (Algol, Pascal, C >>>> and curly bracket languages)) and OO, if only because it makes >>>> learning a new language easier. >>>> >>>> Knowing a few scripted languages is also useful, though more in the >>>> *NIX world, where you really need to know shell scripting, plus the >>>> basics of awk and/or Perl. Familiarity with PHP and (maybe) Python is >>>> also useful. I admit my prejudices show here: I really don't much >>>> like Perl or Python. >>>> >>>> OTOH I do like 4GLs and report generators despite their often >>>> limiting and (often) BASIC-like syntax because you can write useful >>>> programs so fast and in so few lines. >>>> >>>>> Did I waste my time? >>>>> >>>> No. See above. >>>> >>>>> Could it be that learning multiple languages, and how the hardware >>>>> works, and how to freaking build an application such that it >>>>> actually runs for someone for a change, and all those other >>>>> foundational, >>>>> >>>> A basic understanding of hardware and, by extension, a >>>> non-superficial knowledge of at least one OS can be very helpful for >>>> trouble shooting. >>>> >>>> Related to this, if you use databases you need a fairly deep >>>> understanding of SQL - deep enough to understand how the DBMS, the >>>> schema and SQL queries interact and how to use this knowledge to sort >>>> out performance problems for the DBMS(es) you use. All too many >>>> relational database 'designers' and the programmers working for them >>>> haven't the faintest clue about why a particular query has terrible >>>> performance with the DBMS they're using and probably know nothing >>>> about using its performance analysis tools or why a poorly designed >>>> schema's performance can be OK with test data but crash through the >>>> floor when faced with production data volumes. >>>> >>>>> I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I >>>>> didn't know until I started the job. >>>>> >>>> I've lost count of the projects I've done on that basis and the >>>> essential skills for the project that I've picked up on the job. >>>> >>> Another guy whose been hired for jobs where he didn't have the core >>> skill! How did YOU manage that, Martin? I've already asked Lew.... >>> >> Quite simple: I was working for a large and technically very competent >> software house (My first business manager there designed CHAPS, the UK >> secure interbank network and the first of its type anywhere - the >> division I was in implemented quite a few national banking networks off >> the back of CHAPS). I remember him saying (in the pub, our common room) >> that he didn't care what a potential hire knew: he hired brain power, >> not existing knowledge. We assembled project core teams at the bid >> stage: the bid manager would become the project manager if we won the >> job and the members of the bid team became key members of the project. >> The bid team's project estimates and costings were subject to rigorous >> review by management, who made the bid/no-bid decision, so if we won >> the job, the bid team was expected to deliver it. Naturally, we took >> prior knowledge of team members (and their ability to pick up new >> skills) into the bid costings and pulled in expertise as needed. This >> approach worked really well but demanded a high level of technical >> experience in the management team: it all fell apart when the founders >> retired and let salesmen into top managerial positions. The result was >> that a lot of top tekkies left or were made redundant and, though the >> company still exists, it is now not much more than a more or less >> average outsourcing outfit. >> >> During its best years the company operated as an association of small >> (20-40 members) divisions, each having a known expertise and operating >> as a small independent company with its own budget, targets and sales >> people: divisions that grew beyond these limits were split. As a >> result, everybody knew their peers, coherent project teams were >> assembled fairly easily and team members were borrowed from other >> divisions and groups as needed. I believe (was told) that Boeing's >> internal structure was similar (as was IBM's - I know this from >> personal contacts) when both were growing vigorously. >> >> >> > The key thing is that you were already known by your colleagues and they > were confident that you would pick up the required skills in a timely > manner; you weren't an unknown outsider. > > That makes perfect sense. I thought you were saying that you had gotten > into a firm where no one knew you and had somehow persuaded them that > you could learn the shop language in no time flat. I was wondering how > you'd managed that ;-) I should also have said that the company was a lot smaller when I joined it. Enough so that my division could, and usually did, all get into the same pub on Friday nights. A lot of things were discussed and, equally important, our group and divisional managers were there too, joining in the general discussion and buying the odd beer. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <jj4fdh$c37$2@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12710 |
Novice wrote: > The key thing is that you were already known by your colleagues and they > were confident that you would pick up the required skills in a timely > manner; you weren't an unknown outsider. > > That makes perfect sense. I thought you were saying that you had gotten > into a firm where no one knew you and had somehow persuaded them that you > could learn the shop language in no time flat. I was wondering how you'd > managed that ;-) I've done that. I'm doing that on my current job. -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <VI-dnRkuUeVJqsvSnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #12729 |
On 3/5/2012 11:46 PM, Lew wrote: > Novice wrote: >> The key thing is that you were already known by your colleagues and they >> were confident that you would pick up the required skills in a timely >> manner; you weren't an unknown outsider. >> >> That makes perfect sense. I thought you were saying that you had gotten >> into a firm where no one knew you and had somehow persuaded them that you >> could learn the shop language in no time flat. I was wondering how you'd >> managed that ;-) > > > I've done that. I'm doing that on my current job. > > I've been interested in how you do that. I got one job by responding to a newspaper ad without knowing anyone, as a new mathematics graduate and trainee programmer in 1970. Through 2002, when I left work to go back to college, all my subsequent jobs were with people who already knew me, and knew I would quickly learn whatever I needed to know, because they had seen me do it. Now my former bosses have retired or moved out of town, and I don't want to move away from San Diego, so if I ever get bored with retirement, I would have to get a job cold. I have a fairly impressive resume but much of it is specialized skills like performance modeling of servers during development. The things I have done do show that I'm able and willing to learn, but probably not that I already have the specific skills for an arbitrary job. Patricia
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <jj6rda$u2r$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12735 |
Patricia Shanahan wrote: > Lew wrote: >> Novice wrote: >>> The key thing is that you were already known by your colleagues and they >>> were confident that you would pick up the required skills in a timely >>> manner; you weren't an unknown outsider. >>> >>> That makes perfect sense. I thought you were saying that you had gotten >>> into a firm where no one knew you and had somehow persuaded them that you >>> could learn the shop language in no time flat. I was wondering how you'd >>> managed that ;-) >> >> >> I've done that. I'm doing that on my current job. > > I've been interested in how you do that. > > I got one job by responding to a newspaper ad without knowing anyone, as > a new mathematics graduate and trainee programmer in 1970. Through 2002, > when I left work to go back to college, all my subsequent jobs were with > people who already knew me, and knew I would quickly learn whatever I > needed to know, because they had seen me do it. > > Now my former bosses have retired or moved out of town, and I don't want > to move away from San Diego, so if I ever get bored with retirement, I > would have to get a job cold. I have a fairly impressive resume but much > of it is specialized skills like performance modeling of servers during > development. The things I have done do show that I'm able and willing to > learn, but probably not that I already have the specific skills for an > arbitrary job. In my current job as a software engineer in test, they were looking for skills in test automation in related areas. That I've not worked with Objective-C before, for example, was of no concern to them. Someone who knows C, C++, Java, Javascript and such isn't going to have a heart attack over Objective C, but it's harder to find someone who can design and implement an automated test suite. Skills do translate, and many employers know it. -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <4f595886$0$282$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #12735 |
On 3/6/2012 11:14 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > On 3/5/2012 11:46 PM, Lew wrote: >> Novice wrote: >>> The key thing is that you were already known by your colleagues and they >>> were confident that you would pick up the required skills in a timely >>> manner; you weren't an unknown outsider. >>> >>> That makes perfect sense. I thought you were saying that you had gotten >>> into a firm where no one knew you and had somehow persuaded them that >>> you >>> could learn the shop language in no time flat. I was wondering how you'd >>> managed that ;-) >> >> I've done that. I'm doing that on my current job. > > I've been interested in how you do that. > > I got one job by responding to a newspaper ad without knowing anyone, as > a new mathematics graduate and trainee programmer in 1970. Through 2002, > when I left work to go back to college, all my subsequent jobs were with > people who already knew me, and knew I would quickly learn whatever I > needed to know, because they had seen me do it. > > Now my former bosses have retired or moved out of town, and I don't want > to move away from San Diego, so if I ever get bored with retirement, I > would have to get a job cold. I have a fairly impressive resume but much > of it is specialized skills like performance modeling of servers during > development. The things I have done do show that I'm able and willing to > learn, but probably not that I already have the specific skills for an > arbitrary job. Finding a new job is often tricky. Typical there will be multiple obstacles. First you need to get by HR that are doing pure keyword matching because they do not know what the keywords actually means. There is the hiring manager that could be a pure manager type also without technical expertise. And some team members that have the technical skills, but also tend to prioritize "being a nice guy/gal" pretty high. Some people are very good at writing resumes and doing interviews. It is obviously easier for them to be hired. But in the end you will find a job if you are a good engineer. It is just a matter of how many times you need to send your resume and go to an interview before someone recognizes the talent. And I even have a theory about those having to work a bit to find a job end up in jobs they are more happy with than the people that can get an offer out of every interview. When they get the offer it is the perfect job for them. Arne
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| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA009D4C26E08Bjpnasty@94.75.214.39> |
| In reply to | #12552 |
Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in news:jin86o$a91$1@news.albasani.net: > On 02/29/2012 05:44 PM, Novice wrote: >> Martin Gregorie<martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in >> news:jimfg8$di4$1@localhost.localdomain: >> >>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:25:55 +0000, Novice wrote: >>> >>>> I envy you for being fluent in both C and Java (and probably >>>> others!). I have other languages but they're pretty much all very >>>> rusty from lack of use. Mind you, I have found that I can relearn >>>> things pretty quickly even after a long gap. I had occasion to look >>>> at a COBOL program a few years back and found it very familiar. >>>> Mind you, I doubt I'd say the same about C if I were to try that >>>> again ;-) >>>> >>> Just about all I use these days are C and Java plus a few scripting >>> languages (awk, PHP, bash shell scripting and Perl if you insist). >>> In another life I wrote much more COBOL than was good for me, so >>> could probably get up to speed fast with that too. There are a raft >>> of others I used for single projects (PL/1) or that were specific to >>> particular hardware (TAL, PL/9, filetab, RPG III and various >>> assemblers). >>> >>> I'm not sure its useful to know a lot of languages: idioms often >>> don't transfer don't at all well and if you're not careful you can >>> end up writing the nasty sort of code best summarized as "a Real >>> Programmer can write FORTRAN in any language". > > I'm sure that it's useful to know several languages. > >> I'm inclined to agree with you, Martin. I feel good about knowing at >> least one language that is very widely known and used, Java. And I >> can > > Not enough. If you're saying that I don't know Java well enough to actually say I "know" it, you're absolutely right. Which is why I come here and keep slogging away at it. I only meant that I know Java better than C or C++. Or SNOBOL, which I've never even seen. If you mean that I should know more languages, I agree. I'd love to know lots of languages. And I mean know them well, not just be able to do a couple of routine things with them. But there's only so much time in the day so I don't know as much as I'd like to know. > >> always fall back on COBOL in a pinch ;-) Some of the others, even if >> I refreshed myself on them, would be of no use anywhere. I don't >> imagine CSP is used anywhere any more. Or whatever 4GL Online Express >> was part of. ;-) > > I learned SNOBOL once, at university. No practical use to it > whatsoever. I learned Prolog for the Hell of it. Never made a dime > from it. Studied a whole book on natural language processing with > Prolog. Never got f**k-all for that professionally. Learned enough > LISP to know that its fanboys are drug addicts. No one's ever offered > to make that investment pay off, not directly. > > Did I waste my time? > No, I wouldn't say that. > Could it be that learning multiple languages, and how the hardware > works, and how to freaking build an application such that it actually > runs for someone for a change, and all those other foundational, > below-the-surface-part-of-the-iceberg skills have indeed made me the > supergenius amazing developer that I am? Could there be some gestalt > effect that polyglot programming skills elicit? > > Inquiring minds want to know. I'm sure you're right! The languages you've never made money from surely taught you things that helped you learn other languages and acquire other skills. I wasn't denigrating other languages or the effort made to learn them, just musing that putting those languages on a resume probably doesn't help get jobs. At least it's my suspicion that it doesn't help get jobs in today's world. But maybe that's just me being pessimistic. Maybe employers still actually give you huge credit for having known languages that are odead or virutally dead and see it as proof that you can and will learn new things. I really hope that such people still exist. > >> I wonder if any employers consider it a mitigating factor if you know >> several languages if you are applying to them and Java is not their >> shop language (or one of them)? Or do they just drop you from >> consideration immediately and not even consider training you in their >> language? My > > I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I didn't > know until I started the job. > > How long does it take to learn a computer language? It took me about a > week to learn Java. Less for Python, assuming you can say that I've > learned it just because I can write effective programs in it. (I > haven't, actually.) They gave me three class sessions in college to > learn Pascal; I never showed up for the third session. Didn't need to. > C I just picked up on the job because it looked interesting. > > Basically every language I've used professionally I learned on the > job, and every language I've learned outside of work I have not been > paid to use. > Wow! I am truly impressed by that. How did you sell employers on that? I really want to know. I'm picturing a shop whose main language is, say, C++ (which you haven't mentioned so I assume you don't know it.) The ad calls for serious C++ skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that you can be productive in that language in short order? >> impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list of >> qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. And >> they don't seem to want to have to spend any money training anyone >> for anything. > > That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill. > When you say that it shows qualifications, do you mean that it simply lists technologies that you have used or do you have specific industry- recognized certifications in each of the technologies? For instance, one person might list programming skills like so: Languages Known: COBOL, Fortran, LISP, C++ Another might say: Languages: Java (Advanced Programmer Certification), C (Intermediate Programmer Certification), etc. etc. >> I was talking to a friend who does volunteer work at a hospital and >> she was furious. She said even getting a job as a porter in a >> hospital - basically someone who pushes carts around and can >> apparently be fully trained in 20 minutes - requires a community >> college diploma with 8 required credits before they can get that >> diploma. She spoke of "credentialism run amuck". What next: a >> university degree in Chemical Engineering to be able to make coffee >> at Starbucks?.... > > Why would that be bad? > > America is a woefully under-educated nation. People who complain about > having to learn are idiots. What's worse, they're idiots on purpose. > I have nothing whatever against people getting educations and feel like you do about people who complain that they have to learn things. That's not the issue. I'm talking about requiring ridiculous qualifications for something. A child can make coffee without having to graduate the third grade, let alone get a university degree. A person can push a cart from A to B without needing a college diploma. Making them get qualifications that are far in excess of what you need to actually do the job is my complaint. > Hospitals are places where people put their lives in your hands. I > hope to heck everyone in a hospital is educated. Sure. But within reason. I don't want my doctor to have walked in off the street that morning and be trying surgery by lunchtime. But the guy that pushes the portable X-ray machine into my room doesn't need an engineering degree. > I don't care if you > are swabbing toilets. It minimizes the chances that they will steal > drugs, or do something stupid to hurt the sick people. Stealing is something that even educated people do. And even educated people can do stupid things that hurt people. But those quibbles aside, sure, we'd all prefer the people who care for us in hospital to be smart and caring rather than stupid and contemptuous. But that is more of a character thing than an education thing. Doctors with their advanced degrees sometimes have horrible bedside manners while the less educated nurse or orderly can be far more compassionate. Now, I'm still going to want the doctor doing my surgery, not the orderly, but I'm not going to demand that even the orderly be fully qualified to do surgery before he can empty my bedpan or push my gurney. > Your friend is > a schmuck. "Credentials run amuck [sic]" is the excuse of a lazy > person. If they don't want to put in the effort to get qualified for a > good job, they can just go back to asking, "Would you like fries with > that?" > I think you have imagined my friend to be uneducated herself. In fact, she has a PhD in Philosophy. She's not against education, she's been getting educated her whole life. We (she and I) are just exasperated by the idea of qualifications that are far in excess of those needed to do a job properly. -- Novice
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <jipptl$6ar$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12574 |
Novice wrote: > Lew wrote: >> I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I didn't >> know until I started the job. >> >> How long does it take to learn a computer language? It took me about a >> week to learn Java. Less for Python, assuming you can say that I've >> learned it just because I can write effective programs in it. (I >> haven't, actually.) They gave me three class sessions in college to >> learn Pascal; I never showed up for the third session. Didn't need to. >> C I just picked up on the job because it looked interesting. >> >> Basically every language I've used professionally I learned on the >> job, and every language I've learned outside of work I have not been >> paid to use. >> > Wow! I am truly impressed by that. How did you sell employers on that? I > really want to know. I sell the skills I do have and learn new ones after I get there, mostly. Or I have enough of a basic understanding of the language without real expertise that I can get through an interview. Or I sell my ability to pick up the language instantaneously, and give specific cases where I've done just that. The weirdest was a pictorial programming language from Macromedia to create computer-directed learning applications. It was a friend's project, comprising just him and one programmer. He called me on a Thursday to help with a Monday deadline. I'd never programmed in pictures before. I think it's a matter of having the skill and baldly claiming it, but to tell the truth I don't really know how I pull it off. I think people feel the confidence and don't question it too closely. I know my capabilities and people seem to believe me. > I'm picturing a shop whose main language is, say, C++ (which you haven't > mentioned so I assume you don't know it.) The ad calls for serious C++ Wow, those assumptions! Really? I haven't mentioned violin playing, either. Doesn't mean I don't know how to play at least a little. I neglected to bring up that I play chess. Badly, but I play. I'm a really good horseback rider, though I haven't done it in a while.. > skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at > all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that you > can be productive in that language in short order? I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise in it if you don't know it. >>> impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list of >>> qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. And >>> they don't seem to want to have to spend any money training anyone >>> for anything. >> >> That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill. >> > When you say that it shows qualifications, do you mean that it simply > lists technologies that you have used or do you have specific industry- > recognized certifications in each of the technologies? For instance, one > person might list programming skills like so: No, I mean that as a joke. No one has every skill. > Languages Known: COBOL, Fortran, LISP, C++ > > Another might say: > > Languages: Java (Advanced Programmer Certification), C (Intermediate > Programmer Certification), etc. etc. I don't have any certifications. -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <UX04r.20550$Ai4.5115@newsfe18.iad> |
| In reply to | #12577 |
On 12-03-02 02:38 AM, Lew wrote: > Novice wrote: [ SNIP ] >> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at >> all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that you >> can be productive in that language in short order? > > I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise in > it if you don't know it. Yep. I know where you guys are coming from when you say that you can get a job (_have_ gotten jobs) to do something that you haven't ever done yet. That's actually quite common, and in some situations the "Something You Have Never Done Yet" happens to be a programming language. Sometimes (often) you get hired to produce a result, and it's implicit in the deal that you'll get 'er done however you get 'er done, without too much nitpicking about exactly what it is that you know and don't know, at what levels of skill, at that exact moment of time. The employer gets it that you're a competent, experienced developer, you've done this before, and you can learn quickly. The employer also gets it that you know *When You Cannot Do It*. Part of knowing "when you cannot do it" is, for example, if the job requires C++, you don't have barely any C++, and the work needs to get done in 2 months. A responsible developer will disclose that nobody but nobody can come up to speed with C++ - not safely they can't - in 2 months, and also get a real job done. AHS -- -- Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union. Josef Stalin, November 1935
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| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA00A60E176489jpnasty@94.75.214.39> |
| In reply to | #12578 |
Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> wrote in news:UX04r.20550 $Ai4.5115@newsfe18.iad: > On 12-03-02 02:38 AM, Lew wrote: >> Novice wrote: > [ SNIP ] > >>> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at >>> all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that you >>> can be productive in that language in short order? >> >> I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise in >> it if you don't know it. > > Yep. I know where you guys are coming from when you say that you can get > a job (_have_ gotten jobs) to do something that you haven't ever done > yet. That's actually quite common, and in some situations the "Something > You Have Never Done Yet" happens to be a programming language. > > Sometimes (often) you get hired to produce a result, and it's implicit > in the deal that you'll get 'er done however you get 'er done, without > too much nitpicking about exactly what it is that you know and don't > know, at what levels of skill, at that exact moment of time. The > employer gets it that you're a competent, experienced developer, you've > done this before, and you can learn quickly. The employer also gets it > that you know *When You Cannot Do It*. > > Part of knowing "when you cannot do it" is, for example, if the job > requires C++, you don't have barely any C++, and the work needs to get > done in 2 months. A responsible developer will disclose that nobody but > nobody can come up to speed with C++ - not safely they can't - in 2 > months, and also get a real job done. > I would certainly hope so! Mind you, it's a bit frightening that it would even be necessary to tell an employer that. You'd hope they would know that already! Some of the time, a skill you already have is "close enough" to the skill they need that the learning curve is obviously going to be negligible. For example, if they require that you are fluent in Excel and you've never seen it but are a very proficient with Lotus 1-2-3, there shouldn't be any problem. I have yet to see a spreadsheet program that wasn't roughly 90% the same as every other spreadsheet I've ever used. But I'd be inclined to be rather dubious if I was hiring for a Java project and someone came along saying they'd never even looked at Java but they were fluent in C++ and Smalltalk so they think they can do my project. If the deadlines were still some time away and the project was not too demanding, I might be persuaded that the applicant might still be acceptable, especially if he knew my business. But I might still be inclined to choose someone with more knowledge of Java and assume he could learn the business side over someone with no Java and extensive business knowledge. -- Novice
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <wzb4r.24086$Pc2.13688@newsfe13.iad> |
| In reply to | #12584 |
On 12-03-02 10:25 AM, Novice wrote: > Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> wrote in news:UX04r.20550 > $Ai4.5115@newsfe18.iad: > >> On 12-03-02 02:38 AM, Lew wrote: >>> Novice wrote: >> [ SNIP ] >> >>>> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at >>>> all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that > you >>>> can be productive in that language in short order? >>> >>> I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise > in >>> it if you don't know it. >> >> Yep. I know where you guys are coming from when you say that you can > get >> a job (_have_ gotten jobs) to do something that you haven't ever done >> yet. That's actually quite common, and in some situations the > "Something >> You Have Never Done Yet" happens to be a programming language. >> >> Sometimes (often) you get hired to produce a result, and it's implicit >> in the deal that you'll get 'er done however you get 'er done, without >> too much nitpicking about exactly what it is that you know and don't >> know, at what levels of skill, at that exact moment of time. The >> employer gets it that you're a competent, experienced developer, you've >> done this before, and you can learn quickly. The employer also gets it >> that you know *When You Cannot Do It*. >> >> Part of knowing "when you cannot do it" is, for example, if the job >> requires C++, you don't have barely any C++, and the work needs to get >> done in 2 months. A responsible developer will disclose that nobody but >> nobody can come up to speed with C++ - not safely they can't - in 2 >> months, and also get a real job done. >> > I would certainly hope so! Mind you, it's a bit frightening that it would > even be necessary to tell an employer that. You'd hope they would know > that already! > > Some of the time, a skill you already have is "close enough" to the skill > they need that the learning curve is obviously going to be negligible. > For example, if they require that you are fluent in Excel and you've > never seen it but are a very proficient with Lotus 1-2-3, there shouldn't > be any problem. I have yet to see a spreadsheet program that wasn't > roughly 90% the same as every other spreadsheet I've ever used. That's actually the key point, for this comparison and for every other: are you being hired for the 90% or for the 10%? I don't think I can emphasize this enough. This is really where experience comes into the picture, when it comes to being able to tease out what the employer really needs. Sometimes that 10% is the 10% because it's the inevitable different bits of a different implementation. If you're talking Java EE, for example, the 90% might be general Java EE APIs, and the 10% is differences between various app servers. If you're hiring a guy to be a general Java EE app programmer, you're hiring him for the 90%: you're not going to bust his chops because he grew up on Websphere and doesn't know from Tomcat or WebLogic. But if you're hiring a guy to deal with a project that involves technologies that are tied to app server details, the potential employee had best know that this is so. It's *our* (read professional software developers) responsibility to know those details. It could well be that that ostensibly "pure" Java EE project actually requires specific app server knowledge, in which case the 10% now became important. You also need to know enough to understand whether the learning curve actually is negligible or not. To use a Java example, you can't go around saying that JMS is just another API that you haven't picked up yet, but because generally you are quite proficient at Java then JMS is no big deal. In fact the proficient use of JMS is a big deal, it's not trivial, and you need to understand your prospective employer's needs well enough to (1) get that he really wants thorough proficiency with JMS and (2) you either currently have it or you don't. It boils down to knowing a bit about a lot. No successful developer, IMO, knows a lot about a little. > But I'd be inclined to be rather dubious if I was hiring for a Java > project and someone came along saying they'd never even looked at Java > but they were fluent in C++ and Smalltalk so they think they can do my > project. If the deadlines were still some time away and the project was > not too demanding, I might be persuaded that the applicant might still be > acceptable, especially if he knew my business. But I might still be > inclined to choose someone with more knowledge of Java and assume he > could learn the business side over someone with no Java and extensive > business knowledge. > Who wouldn't? All other things being equal (general experience, say) I'd pick the guy who knew C++ template meta-programming over the guy who knew C++ but only basic template use, for a template meta-programming project. Good example about the Java and C++ and Smalltalk. They just ain't the same. I've used all three. There's just not enough in common to assume that someone who's great at C++ is going to be good at Java, or someone who is great at Java is going to cut it with Smalltalk. I'm thinking more and more that developers don't pick up new languages readily because they know a similar one, but rather because (1) they are good developers and (2) they have trained themselves to learn new languages. There are only a few exceptions to this, and that's at a relatively superficial level of expertise and when the languages are quite similar (C# and Java, say). AHS -- -- Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union. Josef Stalin, November 1935
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| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA00A5EA6A2E0Djpnasty@94.75.214.39> |
| In reply to | #12577 |
Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in news:jipptl$6ar$1@news.albasani.net: > Novice wrote: >> Lew wrote: >>> I've been hired again and again and again for languages that I >>> didn't know until I started the job. >>> >>> How long does it take to learn a computer language? It took me about >>> a week to learn Java. Less for Python, assuming you can say that >>> I've learned it just because I can write effective programs in it. >>> (I haven't, actually.) They gave me three class sessions in college >>> to learn Pascal; I never showed up for the third session. Didn't >>> need to. C I just picked up on the job because it looked >>> interesting. >>> >>> Basically every language I've used professionally I learned on the >>> job, and every language I've learned outside of work I have not been >>> paid to use. >>> >> Wow! I am truly impressed by that. How did you sell employers on >> that? I really want to know. > > I sell the skills I do have and learn new ones after I get there, > mostly. Or I have enough of a basic understanding of the language > without real expertise that I can get through an interview. Or I sell > my ability to pick up the language instantaneously, and give specific > cases where I've done just that. > > The weirdest was a pictorial programming language from Macromedia to > create computer-directed learning applications. It was a friend's > project, comprising just him and one programmer. He called me on a > Thursday to help with a Monday deadline. I'd never programmed in > pictures before. > > I think it's a matter of having the skill and baldly claiming it, but > to tell the truth I don't really know how I pull it off. I think > people feel the confidence and don't question it too closely. I know > my capabilities and people seem to believe me. > >> I'm picturing a shop whose main language is, say, C++ (which you >> haven't mentioned so I assume you don't know it.) The ad calls for >> serious C++ > > Wow, those assumptions! > > Really? > > I haven't mentioned violin playing, either. Doesn't mean I don't know > how to play at least a little. > > I neglected to bring up that I play chess. Badly, but I play. > > I'm a really good horseback rider, though I haven't done it in a > while.. > I didn't mean to overlook any skills or make any unflattering assumptions, Lew. I just used C++ because I wanted my example to be of something quite substantive that you couldn't learn well in a few days (or at least that most people couldn't learn well in a few days - you seemed to have learned Java in a remarkably short time!) I simply chose C++ because it is complex and you hadn't mentioned it as being one of your skills. It doesn't remotely surprise me that you know it and possibly very well. It seems quite likely that you learned Java so quickly because you had previous exposure to C++ or something like it. That would give you exposure to much of the syntax and all of the OO concepts and give you a massive head start with Java. >> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at >> all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that >> you can be productive in that language in short order? > > I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise > in it if you don't know it. > Absolutely! I was astounded that you had learned Java that quickly but as I just said above, that probably happened because you had a similar language, very likely C++, so that you didn't have all that much to learn when you got to Java. >>>> impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list of >>>> qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. And >>>> they don't seem to want to have to spend any money training anyone >>>> for anything. >>> >>> That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill. >>> >> When you say that it shows qualifications, do you mean that it simply >> lists technologies that you have used or do you have specific >> industry- recognized certifications in each of the technologies? For >> instance, one person might list programming skills like so: > > No, I mean that as a joke. No one has every skill. > Of course not. Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were talking about how you described the skills you do have. >> Languages Known: COBOL, Fortran, LISP, C++ >> >> Another might say: >> >> Languages: Java (Advanced Programmer Certification), C (Intermediate >> Programmer Certification), etc. etc. > > I don't have any certifications. > I'm even more impressed. So many ads seem to want to see certifications. You've managed to get jobs without having the main shop language or any certifications! I wouldn't even apply to jobs like that on the assumption that my resume would be immediately disqualified.... I would LOVE to find out how you manage to get considered despite what seem like insurmountable obstacles to me.... -- Novice
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <jiqu61$dj8$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12583 |
Novice wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> Novice wrote:
>>> How did you sell employers on that? I really want to know.
>>>
>> I think it's a matter of having the skill and baldly claiming it, but
>> to tell the truth I don't really know how I pull it off. I think
>> people feel the confidence and don't question it too closely. I know
>> my capabilities and people seem to believe me.
>>
>>> I'm picturing a shop whose main language is, say, C++ (which you
>>> haven't mentioned so I assume you don't know it.) The ad calls for
>>> serious C++
...
>>
> I didn't mean to overlook any skills or make any unflattering
> assumptions, Lew. I just used C++ because I wanted my example to be of
> something quite substantive that you couldn't learn well in a few days
> (or at least that most people couldn't learn well in a few days - you
> seemed to have learned Java in a remarkably short time!) I simply chose
I learned Java in a week because I'd spent time reading about it for a year first.
But I didn't consider that I had learned it because I hadn't used it, couldn't
figure out how packages related to directories, and had some other troubles.
I learned the language itself enough to program with it in about a week in
early 1999. That employer knew of my weakness in the language. I told him I
needed a week and he gave me a chance to prove it.
I wasn't adept in Java until at least 2000, not really until 2001. During that
time I went to Java Users' Group (JUG) meetings, heck, a friend of mine and I
ran a JUG for almost two years, training Java programmers. (I got trained
there, too.) I read constantly, then and now, various Java articles and still
go back and re-read the tutorials from time to time. Then and now, I wrote
sample applications, sometimes relatively complex, to learn new techniques
like JPA and JSF.
Often I'd learn something like JPA using Apache OpenJPA, then shortly
thereafter get a job where they used Hibernate, but pre-JPA. So I didn't have
the specific buzzword ("Hibernate", and not JPA at that). But I had
substantial experience in ORMs (Object-Relational Mapping frameworks), SQL,
and JDBC, with study knowledge of JPA. It was enough; in fact it made me
better at Hibernate than the rest of my team combined, and they had experience
with it.
Beware of claims like "I learned Java in a week". It's taking me a lot of
years to become an overnight success.
> C++ because it is complex and you hadn't mentioned it as being one of
> your skills. It doesn't remotely surprise me that you know it and
> possibly very well. It seems quite likely that you learned Java so
> quickly because you had previous exposure to C++ or something like it.
> That would give you exposure to much of the syntax and all of the OO
> concepts and give you a massive head start with Java.
>
>>> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ at
>>> all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them that
>>> you can be productive in that language in short order?
>>
>> I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming expertise
>> in it if you don't know it.
>>
> Absolutely! I was astounded that you had learned Java that quickly but as
> I just said above, that probably happened because you had a similar
> language, very likely C++, so that you didn't have all that much to learn
> when you got to Java.
You know, "learned" is such an imprecise term.
>>>>> impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list of
>>>>> qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. And
>>>>> they don't seem to want to have to spend any money training anyone
>>>>> for anything.
>>>>
>>>> That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill.
>>>>
>>> When you say that it shows qualifications, do you mean that it simply
>>> lists technologies that you have used or do you have specific
>>> industry- recognized certifications in each of the technologies? For
>>> instance, one person might list programming skills like so:
>>
>> No, I mean that as a joke. No one has every skill.
>>
> Of course not. Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were
> talking about how you described the skills you do have.
I describe them with five pages of small-print, densely-formatted resume
comprising very brief synopses that mostly just list the technologies from
each project with a curt overview of what I did with them.
>>> Languages Known: COBOL, Fortran, LISP, C++
I learned COBOL in college, swearing then not to become known as a programmer
in it. It's actually not a bad language, I now think. I programmed
professionally in FORTRAN (and Fortran) for several years after I graduated,
before teaching myself C. (On the job, with my manager's blessing. But then, I
was already an employee there.) I learned C++ on my own well enough to
convince someone to hire me for it, then got better at it on the job.
I've studied LISP but never used it. I don't claim to know the language.
I used Python on my most recent project. I was successful at programming with
it, but I have yet to learn it. Nevertheless, it's listed as a skill, since I
can program with it, after all.
>>> Another might say:
>>>
>>> Languages: Java (Advanced Programmer Certification), C (Intermediate
>>> Programmer Certification), etc. etc.
>>
>> I don't have any certifications.
>>
> I'm even more impressed. So many ads seem to want to see certifications.
> You've managed to get jobs without having the main shop language or any
> certifications! I wouldn't even apply to jobs like that on the assumption
> that my resume would be immediately disqualified....
>
> I would LOVE to find out how you manage to get considered despite what
> seem like insurmountable obstacles to me....
I sell the strengths I do have, acknowledge the weaknesses openly but not
obsequiously, and lay out a specific strategy and rationale why those
weaknesses don't matter much but the strengths do.
And I totally believe in myself.
Also, I spent a year living on straight commission once.
--
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA00D70A7C97EDjpnasty@94.75.214.39> |
| In reply to | #12586 |
Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in news:jiqu61$dj8$1@news.albasani.net:
> Novice wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Novice wrote:
>>>> How did you sell employers on that? I really want to know.
>>>>
>>> I think it's a matter of having the skill and baldly claiming it,
>>> but to tell the truth I don't really know how I pull it off. I think
>>> people feel the confidence and don't question it too closely. I know
>>> my capabilities and people seem to believe me.
>>>
>>>> I'm picturing a shop whose main language is, say, C++ (which you
>>>> haven't mentioned so I assume you don't know it.) The ad calls for
>>>> serious C++
> ...
>>>
>> I didn't mean to overlook any skills or make any unflattering
>> assumptions, Lew. I just used C++ because I wanted my example to be
>> of something quite substantive that you couldn't learn well in a few
>> days (or at least that most people couldn't learn well in a few days
>> - you seemed to have learned Java in a remarkably short time!) I
>> simply chose
>
> I learned Java in a week because I'd spent time reading about it for a
> year first.
>
> But I didn't consider that I had learned it because I hadn't used it,
> couldn't figure out how packages related to directories, and had some
> other troubles.
>
> I learned the language itself enough to program with it in about a
> week in early 1999. That employer knew of my weakness in the language.
> I told him I needed a week and he gave me a chance to prove it.
>
> I wasn't adept in Java until at least 2000, not really until 2001.
> During that time I went to Java Users' Group (JUG) meetings, heck, a
> friend of mine and I ran a JUG for almost two years, training Java
> programmers. (I got trained there, too.) I read constantly, then and
> now, various Java articles and still go back and re-read the tutorials
> from time to time. Then and now, I wrote sample applications,
> sometimes relatively complex, to learn new techniques like JPA and
> JSF.
>
> Often I'd learn something like JPA using Apache OpenJPA, then shortly
> thereafter get a job where they used Hibernate, but pre-JPA. So I
> didn't have the specific buzzword ("Hibernate", and not JPA at that).
> But I had substantial experience in ORMs (Object-Relational Mapping
> frameworks), SQL, and JDBC, with study knowledge of JPA. It was
> enough; in fact it made me better at Hibernate than the rest of my
> team combined, and they had experience with it.
>
> Beware of claims like "I learned Java in a week". It's taking me a lot
> of years to become an overnight success.
>
:-)
Thanks for the clarification on what you meant by "learned". As you say
further down, "learned" is a VERY imprecise term!
>> C++ because it is complex and you hadn't mentioned it as being one of
>> your skills. It doesn't remotely surprise me that you know it and
>> possibly very well. It seems quite likely that you learned Java so
>> quickly because you had previous exposure to C++ or something like
>> it. That would give you exposure to much of the syntax and all of the
>> OO concepts and give you a massive head start with Java.
>>
>>>> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++
>>>> at all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them
>>>> that you can be productive in that language in short order?
>>>
>>> I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming
>>> expertise in it if you don't know it.
>>>
>> Absolutely! I was astounded that you had learned Java that quickly
>> but as I just said above, that probably happened because you had a
>> similar language, very likely C++, so that you didn't have all that
>> much to learn when you got to Java.
>
> You know, "learned" is such an imprecise term.
>
Agreed!
>>>>>> impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list
>>>>>> of qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want.
>>>>>> And they don't seem to want to have to spend any money training
>>>>>> anyone for anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill.
>>>>>
>>>> When you say that it shows qualifications, do you mean that it
>>>> simply lists technologies that you have used or do you have
>>>> specific industry- recognized certifications in each of the
>>>> technologies? For instance, one person might list programming
>>>> skills like so:
>>>
>>> No, I mean that as a joke. No one has every skill.
>>>
>> Of course not. Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were
>> talking about how you described the skills you do have.
>
> I describe them with five pages of small-print, densely-formatted
> resume comprising very brief synopses that mostly just list the
> technologies from each project with a curt overview of what I did with
> them.
>
Oh my gosh! You're breaking the One Page Rule!</mock horror>
So I'm not the only one that actually answers the question "what do you
know" without worrying too much about obeying that horrible rule about
keeping resumes to a single page No Matter What....
>>>> Languages Known: COBOL, Fortran, LISP, C++
>
> I learned COBOL in college, swearing then not to become known as a
> programmer in it. It's actually not a bad language, I now think. I
> programmed professionally in FORTRAN (and Fortran) for several years
> after I graduated, before teaching myself C. (On the job, with my
> manager's blessing. But then, I was already an employee there.) I
> learned C++ on my own well enough to convince someone to hire me for
> it, then got better at it on the job.
>
I'm hoping to do the same thing as you did with C++ but with Java
instead....
> I've studied LISP but never used it. I don't claim to know the
> language.
>
> I used Python on my most recent project. I was successful at
> programming with it, but I have yet to learn it. Nevertheless, it's
> listed as a skill, since I can program with it, after all.
>
>>>> Another might say:
>>>>
>>>> Languages: Java (Advanced Programmer Certification), C
>>>> (Intermediate Programmer Certification), etc. etc.
>>>
>>> I don't have any certifications.
>>>
>> I'm even more impressed. So many ads seem to want to see
>> certifications. You've managed to get jobs without having the main
>> shop language or any certifications! I wouldn't even apply to jobs
>> like that on the assumption that my resume would be immediately
>> disqualified....
>>
>> I would LOVE to find out how you manage to get considered despite
>> what seem like insurmountable obstacles to me....
>
> I sell the strengths I do have, acknowledge the weaknesses openly but
> not obsequiously, and lay out a specific strategy and rationale why
> those weaknesses don't matter much but the strengths do.
>
> And I totally believe in myself.
>
Now there's something I need to work on.... Self-confidence is NOT my
strong suit!
> Also, I spent a year living on straight commission once.
>
Yikes! One of my great nightmares is the prospect of having to do that. I
can imagine you pulling it off since you do believe strongly in yourself
but I don't have that. The prospect of having to live by sweet-talking
people into buying things that they probably don't want or need - and
maybe can't afford - is very distasteful to me....
--
Novice
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| From | Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <jj4fgm$c37$3@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12711 |
Novice wrote: > Yikes! One of my great nightmares is the prospect of having to do that. I > can imagine you pulling it off since you do believe strongly in yourself > but I don't have that. The prospect of having to live by sweet-talking > people into buying things that they probably don't want or need - and > maybe can't afford - is very distasteful to me.... There you go with your assumptions again. And these could be construed as insulting. I did no such thing. -- Lew Honi soit qui mal y pense. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
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| From | Novice <novice@example..com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA00F9F5167DDDjpnasty@94.75.214.39> |
| In reply to | #12730 |
Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> wrote in news:jj4fgm$c37$3@news.albasani.net: > Novice wrote: >> Yikes! One of my great nightmares is the prospect of having to do >> that. I can imagine you pulling it off since you do believe strongly >> in yourself but I don't have that. The prospect of having to live by >> sweet-talking people into buying things that they probably don't want >> or need - and maybe can't afford - is very distasteful to me.... > > There you go with your assumptions again. > > And these could be construed as insulting. I did no such thing. > Sorry, no insult intended! I suppose I just projected because having to do sales of something like vaccuum cleaners is MY nightmare..... I'm glad you've never been in that position. I suppose your sales job was something like helping sell advanced technical services or software. I've actually been peripherally involved in activities like that and did fine with them. But the thought of cold-calling people to sell some general bit of merchandise, either on the phone or door-to-door is definitely nightmare-inducing for me. -- Novice
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