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Aspect questions?

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  Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-24 20:10 +0000
    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 13:05 -0800
      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 05:47 +0000
        Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 23:40 -0800
          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:02 +0000
            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:08 -0800
              Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 22:12 +0000
                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 14:27 -0800
                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 23:29 +0000
                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:33 -0500
                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 14:38 +0000
                        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:49 -0500
                          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:53 -0500
                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 18:17 +0000
                    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 16:01 -0800
                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 17:22 +0000
                        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 12:25 -0500
                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:08 +0000
                            Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:33 -0500
                              Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:05 -0800
                                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 20:18 -0500
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:29 -0800
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:44 -0400
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:37 -0500
                                      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 00:04 -0800
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-28 01:39 -0800
                                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 14:54 +0000
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:24 -0500
                              Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 04:53 +0000
                                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:08 -0500
                              Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:12 +0000
                                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:38 -0800
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:27 +0000
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:22 -0800
                                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:24 -0800
                                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:00 +0000
                                            Re: Aspect questions? Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-02-29 09:14 -0800
                                            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 09:55 -0800
                                              Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 21:31 +0000
                                                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:06 -0800
                                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 04:33 +0000
                                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-04 23:00 +0000
                                                    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-04 17:07 -0800
                                                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:33 +0000
                                                        JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-03-05 08:38 -0800
                                                          Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 17:40 +0000
                                                          Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-05 21:25 -0800
                                                            Re: JavaDoc linking (Was: Aspect questions?) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-06 17:23 -0500
                                                        Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:45 -0800
                                                          Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-06 06:03 -0400
                                                            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:05 -0800
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:11 -0500
                                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:09 -0500
                            Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 23:43 +0000
                              Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 05:20 +0000
                                Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-26 21:32 -0800
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 17:36 +0000
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 13:18 -0500
                                      Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:05 -0500
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:33 -0500
                                          Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 14:53 -0500
                                            Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 15:16 -0500
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-27 17:57 -0500
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:59 +0000
                                          Re: Aspect questions? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-28 05:50 -0500
                                            Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:03 +0000
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-27 13:17 -0800
                                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 22:55 +0000
                                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 05:58 -0400
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:14 +0000
                                Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 00:12 +0000
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 02:04 +0000
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:22 -0500
                                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:11 +0000
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:14 -0500
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-28 23:09 +0000
                                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:25 +0000
                                        Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 00:22 +0000
                                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-01 01:44 +0000
                                            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-29 23:24 -0800
                                              Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-01 21:19 +0000
                                                Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:52 +0000
                                                  Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-03 01:39 +0000
                                                    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:38 +0000
                                                      Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-03-05 22:50 +0000
                                                      Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:46 -0800
                                                        Re: Aspect questions? Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-03-06 08:14 -0800
                                                          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-06 21:23 -0800
                                                          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-08 20:10 -0500
                                              Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 01:49 +0000
                                                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-01 22:38 -0800
                                                  Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 06:05 -0400
                                                    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-03-02 18:10 -0400
                                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-02 14:12 +0000
                                                    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 08:57 -0800
                                                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-05 15:57 +0000
                                                        Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-05 23:48 -0800
                                                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-03-07 20:33 +0000
                                                            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-03-07 13:09 -0800
                                              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:20 -0500
                                                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-03-02 14:28 -0800
                                          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:16 -0500
                        Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 10:10 -0800
                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:52 +0000
                            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:48 -0800
                          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:47 -0800
                            Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:40 -0500
                          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:36 -0500
                            Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 16:04 -0800
                              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:38 -0500
                                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 17:09 -0800
                            Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 20:08 -0400
                              Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 19:43 -0500
                                Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-27 22:03 -0400
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:18 -0500
                        Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 13:43 -0800
                          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 01:11 +0000
                            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 21:49 -0800
                              Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-27 18:37 +0000
                                Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 12:28 -0800
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-28 00:55 +0000
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-27 17:37 -0800
                                      Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 15:57 +0000
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-28 03:21 -0600
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-28 09:19 -0800
                                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-27 21:12 -0500
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-28 05:59 -0400
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-28 17:27 -0500
                                  Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-29 16:07 +0000
                                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-03-02 17:26 -0500
                Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:22 -0500
                  Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 20:22 -0800
                    Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 22:20 -0800
                      Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-26 00:04 -0800
                        Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:21 -0800
                          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 00:33 -0800
                        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:43 -0500
                      Re: Aspect questions? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-26 11:18 +0000
                        Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 11:04 -0400
                      Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-26 10:22 -0400
                        Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 21:04 +0000
                          Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-26 14:01 -0800
                            Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 18:46 -0500
                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 09:50 -0500
                    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-26 10:38 -0500
                    Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-26 20:49 +0000
        Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 09:47 +0100
          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:03 +0000
            Re: Aspect questions? jlp <jlp@jlp.com> - 2012-02-25 20:02 +0100
        Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 10:20 -0400
          Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-25 08:18 -0800
            Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 12:04 -0500
          Re: Aspect questions? Novice <novice@example..com> - 2012-02-25 17:17 +0000
            Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 18:40 -0400
            Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 18:18 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:21 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-25 14:35 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? markspace <-@.> - 2012-02-24 14:30 -0800
      Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:47 -0500
        Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-24 20:52 -0800
          Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-25 09:31 -0500
          Re: Aspect questions? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-25 11:05 -0400
            Re: Aspect questions? Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-02-25 12:20 -0800
    Re: Aspect questions? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-24 19:00 -0500
    Re: Aspect questions? Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2012-02-25 00:22 +0000

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#12443

On 02/27/2012 02:05 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>
> An exercise:
> Write a package description and specification for each of the packages
> in your project. Use the Eclipse API Specification as a template.

Include it as a Package-Level Comment in your project source tree.
See links below.

<http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html>
<http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#packagecomments>
<http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#styleguide>
<http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#principles>

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#12444

On 02/27/2012 02:33 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
> On 02/27/2012 02:05 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>
>> An exercise:
>> Write a package description and specification for each of the packages
>> in your project. Use the Eclipse API Specification as a template.
>
> Include it as a Package-Level Comment in your project source tree.
> See links below.
>
> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html>
>
> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#packagecomments>
>
> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#styleguide>
>
> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#principles>
>
Run the javadoc tool over your project. Does your project's organization 
appear orderly and beauteous? Why? Why not?

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#12445

On 02/27/2012 02:53 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
> On 02/27/2012 02:33 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>> On 02/27/2012 02:05 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>
>>> An exercise:
>>> Write a package description and specification for each of the packages
>>> in your project. Use the Eclipse API Specification as a template.
>>
>> Include it as a Package-Level Comment in your project source tree.
>> See links below.
>>
>> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#packagecomments>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#styleguide>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/index-137868.html#principles>
>>
>>
> Run the javadoc tool over your project. Does your project's organization
> appear orderly and beauteous? Why? Why not?
>
>
<http://sixrevisions.com/web_design/gestalt-principles-applied-in-design/>

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#12455

On 02/27/2012 02:05 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>
> An exercise:
> Write a package description and specification for each of the packages
> in your project. Use the Eclipse API Specification as a template.
>

Another exercise:
Think of a new software product.
Describe the product and it's features.
Think about the implementation of the product.
What major subsystems does it incorporate.
Think about the implementation of each subsystem.
What types does it handle,
what behaviors does it provide,
how does it interact with other subsystems?
Open a new Eclipse project.
Add appropriate packages to your project.
Add appropriate types and interfaces to the packages.
Add appropriate methods to your types and interfaces.
Do not implement any of the functionality,
only declarations and javadoc comments.
Run the javadoc tool over your project,
and save the resulting project javadoc somewhere.
Delete the project and forget it for a couple of months.
After that time give the project javadoc to a friend
and ask him if he thinks that he can implement your
product from this complete specification.
Could you?

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#12456

Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:jigk6b$5h4$1@dont-email.me: 

> On 02/27/2012 01:18 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>> On 02/27/2012 12:36 PM, Novice wrote:
>>> At least you know what you're doing! I have perfectionist tendencies
>>> without really being sure what I'm doing; try finding perfection
>>> when you don't really have a clear picture of what it is! :-)
>>
>> Look at other projects, lots of them.
>>
>>> I don't really see packages as that big a deal though. Whether I
>>> import one or five to twenty-five in a given class doesn't seem that
>>> important though. More packages probably makes the Javadocs more
>>> impressive looking at first glance but if the underlying code
>>> doesn't make sense, then it's all nonsense anyways....
>>>
>> You need to develop your own sense of order and beauty, no one here
>> can give you one.
>>
>>
> 
> Look at the Eclipse API Specification:
> <http://help.eclipse.org/indigo/topic/org.eclipse.platform.doc.isv/refe
> rence/api/overview-summary.html> Do you find it orderly and beauteous?
> Why? Why not? 
> 
You do mean these questions and your proposed exercise rhetorically, 
right? I'm willing to actually do them if it would help me do a better 
job but I'm inclined to think that you don't mean that you literally want 
me to do this right in the newsgroup. Correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm 
speaking about the suggestions in your follow-on posts too.)

Don't get me wrong, they actually look like good ideas!




-- 
Novice

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#12484

On 02/27/2012 05:59 PM, Novice wrote:
> Jeff Higgins<jeff@invalid.invalid>  wrote in
> news:jigk6b$5h4$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 02/27/2012 01:18 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>> On 02/27/2012 12:36 PM, Novice wrote:
>>>> At least you know what you're doing! I have perfectionist tendencies
>>>> without really being sure what I'm doing; try finding perfection
>>>> when you don't really have a clear picture of what it is! :-)
>>>
>>> Look at other projects, lots of them.
>>>
>>>> I don't really see packages as that big a deal though. Whether I
>>>> import one or five to twenty-five in a given class doesn't seem that
>>>> important though. More packages probably makes the Javadocs more
>>>> impressive looking at first glance but if the underlying code
>>>> doesn't make sense, then it's all nonsense anyways....
>>>>
>>> You need to develop your own sense of order and beauty, no one here
>>> can give you one.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Look at the Eclipse API Specification:
>> <http://help.eclipse.org/indigo/topic/org.eclipse.platform.doc.isv/refe
>> rence/api/overview-summary.html>  Do you find it orderly and beauteous?
>> Why? Why not?
>>
> You do mean these questions and your proposed exercise rhetorically,
> right?

No.

> I'm willing to actually do them if it would help me do a better
> job

Look at other projects, lots of them.
I guess I should have added:
Apply critical thinking to each.

> but I'm inclined to think that you don't mean that you literally want
> me to do this right in the newsgroup.

This is usenet, not a study hall.
Do your study in a comfortable quiet place.

> Correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm
> speaking about the suggestions in your follow-on posts too.)

Speakers outline their speeches before writing them.
Authors outline their papers before writing them.
Programmers outline their programs before writing them.
What better way to outline a Java program than javadoc?

>
> Don't get me wrong, they actually look like good ideas!
>

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#12529

Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote in news:jiibgp$nu4$1@dont-
email.me:

> On 02/27/2012 05:59 PM, Novice wrote:
>> Jeff Higgins<jeff@invalid.invalid>  wrote in
>> news:jigk6b$5h4$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 02/27/2012 01:18 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>> On 02/27/2012 12:36 PM, Novice wrote:
>>>>> At least you know what you're doing! I have perfectionist 
tendencies
>>>>> without really being sure what I'm doing; try finding perfection
>>>>> when you don't really have a clear picture of what it is! :-)
>>>>
>>>> Look at other projects, lots of them.
>>>>
>>>>> I don't really see packages as that big a deal though. Whether I
>>>>> import one or five to twenty-five in a given class doesn't seem 
that
>>>>> important though. More packages probably makes the Javadocs more
>>>>> impressive looking at first glance but if the underlying code
>>>>> doesn't make sense, then it's all nonsense anyways....
>>>>>
>>>> You need to develop your own sense of order and beauty, no one here
>>>> can give you one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Look at the Eclipse API Specification:
>>> 
<http://help.eclipse.org/indigo/topic/org.eclipse.platform.doc.isv/refe
>>> rence/api/overview-summary.html>  Do you find it orderly and 
beauteous?
>>> Why? Why not?
>>>
>> You do mean these questions and your proposed exercise rhetorically,
>> right?
> 
> No.
> 
>> I'm willing to actually do them if it would help me do a better
>> job
> 
> Look at other projects, lots of them.
> I guess I should have added:
> Apply critical thinking to each.
>
Excellent advice!
 
>> but I'm inclined to think that you don't mean that you literally want
>> me to do this right in the newsgroup.
> 
> This is usenet, not a study hall.
> Do your study in a comfortable quiet place.
> 
>> Correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm
>> speaking about the suggestions in your follow-on posts too.)
> 
> Speakers outline their speeches before writing them.
> Authors outline their papers before writing them.
> Programmers outline their programs before writing them.
> What better way to outline a Java program than javadoc?
>
I have no problem with that. In fact, I often write comments before I 
write code. Even a single sentence laying out what I'm trying to 
accomplish helps me clarify and organize what the code needs to do. 
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, they actually look like good ideas!
>>
> 






-- 
Novice

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#12451

On 2/27/2012 9:36 AM, Novice wrote:
> Patricia Shanahan<pats@acm.org>  wrote in
> news:zfadnTejHuD1iNbSnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
...
>> If not, my advice is to not second-guess yourself. If there is
> something
>> seriously wrong with how you have the code organized now, it will
> become
>> obvious during program maintenance. Refactor then.
>>
> I am chronic about second-guessing myself. I suppose I've never had a lot
> of encouragement of the "you're brilliant" kind along the way ;-)

I think brilliance is overrated, so I would not worry about whether you
have it or not. I know brilliant people who have achieved little or
nothing. Besides, you can't choose to be brilliant.

You can choose, and apparently have chosen, to ask questions, read and
try to understand the answers, and apply the answers in your own
programming. That will take you a long way. The very fact that you do
care about style and organization will help you program well.

Patricia

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#12454

Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> wrote in
news:__mdndPfOLZ5b9bSnZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@earthlink.com: 

> On 2/27/2012 9:36 AM, Novice wrote:
>> Patricia Shanahan<pats@acm.org>  wrote in
>> news:zfadnTejHuD1iNbSnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
> ...
>>> If not, my advice is to not second-guess yourself. If there is
>> something
>>> seriously wrong with how you have the code organized now, it will
>> become
>>> obvious during program maintenance. Refactor then.
>>>
>> I am chronic about second-guessing myself. I suppose I've never had a
>> lot of encouragement of the "you're brilliant" kind along the way ;-)
> 
> I think brilliance is overrated, so I would not worry about whether
> you have it or not. I know brilliant people who have achieved little
> or nothing. Besides, you can't choose to be brilliant.
>
Very good points, especially the last one. We have to work with what we 
have, not with what we wish we had!
 
> You can choose, and apparently have chosen, to ask questions, read and
> try to understand the answers, and apply the answers in your own
> programming. That will take you a long way. The very fact that you do
> care about style and organization will help you program well.
> 
I sure hope that's true. In the absence of brilliance, I have to make do 
with slogging away, just like 99.99% of the human race.... :-)

Thanks for the encouragement, Patricia!

-- 
Novice

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#12427

On 12-02-27 01:20 AM, Novice wrote:
> Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in
> news:jieg2n$beo$1@localhost.localdomain: 
> 
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:08:49 +0000, Novice wrote:
>>
>>> So, with respect to my common classes, should they all be in one big
>>> package, like com.novice.common? Or is it better to group them on
>>> some basis so that different types of common modules are in their own
>>> packages? If grouping them is a good idea, what's the best way to
>>> group them?
>>>
>> I'd say generally yes, unless you see a definite reason to put another
>> (set of) class(es) in a separate package. Example:
>>
>> My common set forms the  org.gregorie.environ package because I regard
>> these as setting an environment for the stuff I write. However, I also
>> do a bit of image manipulation and found I was writing repetitive
>> common code in this area, so that got refactored as classes in the 
>> org.gregorie.image package. And so forth....
>>
>> Any time you find this approach puts a class where you don't expect to
>> find it, consider changing your package structure. Its helpful if your
>> 'common' package only contains classes that are likely to be useful
>> for any program you write (e.g logging and command line parsing) and
>> that your other packages contain classes that are often used together.
>>
> I've really struggled with this. I have things set up a certain way now 
> but I'm constantly second-guessing myself and wondering if its the best 
> way to do things. 
> 
> For instance, I've got some utilities classes and I put them altogether 
> in a single package. But they are a mix of very different kinds of 
> utilities. Some deal with String manipulation, some with dates, some with 
> databases, etc. etc. Sometimes I wonder if I should take utilities that 
> deal with dates and group them with lookup classes that deal with dates 
> rather than group them on the basis of them being a utility or lookup. 
> After all "utility" is not something I could easily define in a 
> satisfying way and "lookup" is similarly unsatisfying. 
> 
> Thanks for sharing your views on this, Martin!
> 
The general guideline for Java packages is that, as Lew has pointed out
several times, they contain classes of related functionality. Often a
"utils" type class is specific enough to classes in one of your packages
(or a sub-hierarchy of packages) that there is an obvious package to put
that *Util or *Utils class into.

But sometimes a "utils" type class doesn't relate closely to any single
package you have. In that case it sure doesn't offend most people's
sense of propriety to have a separate "util" or "utils" package at some
level (typically fairly high in your package tree, though). This can
actually be useful to quickly locate a "utils" class in large codebases
also, because it becomes a convention. Like Patricia said, don't beat
yourself up over decisions like this.

Another note on "utils" type classes. If they really are that general
purpose, consider developing them in an IDE as a separate project
containing that "util" or "utils" package. Ultimately they should be
providable to other work as a JAR.

AHS
-- 
-- Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union.
Josef Stalin, November 1935

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#12438

Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> wrote in
news:OsI2r.7680$py5.6176@newsfe09.iad: 

> On 12-02-27 01:20 AM, Novice wrote:
>> Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in
>> news:jieg2n$beo$1@localhost.localdomain: 
>> 
>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:08:49 +0000, Novice wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, with respect to my common classes, should they all be in one
>>>> big package, like com.novice.common? Or is it better to group them
>>>> on some basis so that different types of common modules are in
>>>> their own packages? If grouping them is a good idea, what's the
>>>> best way to group them?
>>>>
>>> I'd say generally yes, unless you see a definite reason to put
>>> another (set of) class(es) in a separate package. Example:
>>>
>>> My common set forms the  org.gregorie.environ package because I
>>> regard these as setting an environment for the stuff I write.
>>> However, I also do a bit of image manipulation and found I was
>>> writing repetitive common code in this area, so that got refactored
>>> as classes in the org.gregorie.image package. And so forth....
>>>
>>> Any time you find this approach puts a class where you don't expect
>>> to find it, consider changing your package structure. Its helpful if
>>> your 'common' package only contains classes that are likely to be
>>> useful for any program you write (e.g logging and command line
>>> parsing) and that your other packages contain classes that are often
>>> used together. 
>>>
>> I've really struggled with this. I have things set up a certain way
>> now but I'm constantly second-guessing myself and wondering if its
>> the best way to do things. 
>> 
>> For instance, I've got some utilities classes and I put them
>> altogether in a single package. But they are a mix of very different
>> kinds of utilities. Some deal with String manipulation, some with
>> dates, some with databases, etc. etc. Sometimes I wonder if I should
>> take utilities that deal with dates and group them with lookup
>> classes that deal with dates rather than group them on the basis of
>> them being a utility or lookup. After all "utility" is not something
>> I could easily define in a satisfying way and "lookup" is similarly
>> unsatisfying. 
>> 
>> Thanks for sharing your views on this, Martin!
>> 
> The general guideline for Java packages is that, as Lew has pointed
> out several times, they contain classes of related functionality.

Yes, I've been reading his remarks (and the rest of this big thread) and 
digesting the advice. 

I've basically grouped all of my Common project code into a single 
package, com.novice.common, including all the resources. (A few select 
items that are closely related will probably get moved again to their own 
packages but I don't expect many of those.) 

> Often a "utils" type class is specific enough to classes in one of
> your packages (or a sub-hierarchy of packages) that there is an
> obvious package to put that *Util or *Utils class into.
> 
> But sometimes a "utils" type class doesn't relate closely to any
> single package you have. In that case it sure doesn't offend most
> people's sense of propriety to have a separate "util" or "utils"
> package at some level (typically fairly high in your package tree,
> though). This can actually be useful to quickly locate a "utils" class
> in large codebases also, because it becomes a convention. Like
> Patricia said, don't beat yourself up over decisions like this.
>
Agreed. As I said in my reply to her, I don't really see the packages 
issue as being terribly important. The smaller packages are a bit more 
convenient for finding things but that's about the only real advantage.  
My new approach with everything in the Common project being in the same 
package means that my com.novice.common now spans a page and a half in 
the Eclipse Package Explorer but that's not that inconvenient. I may 
change the Eclipse preferences to sort the list a bit differently so that 
the resources for a class follow it rather than come at the end of the 
list but that's no biggie. 

Commons Candidate, which is my other project containing less polished 
common code, is now seven pages long but i will be better once I move out 
things that don't belong in there, like sandbox code or downloaded 
fragments that I use to learn things.
 
> Another note on "utils" type classes. If they really are that general
> purpose, consider developing them in an IDE as a separate project
> containing that "util" or "utils" package. Ultimately they should be
> providable to other work as a JAR.
> 
I'm not sure if my utils classes merit separate projects. They really 
just provide convenience methods in most cases. I can't see any of them 
becoming a standalone product of some kind. But I'll keep an open mind. 
If I develop something that actual has promise as a standalone product, 
I'll certainly put it in a separate project.

-- 
Novice

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#12457

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:20:48 +0000, Novice wrote:

> I've really struggled with this. I have things set up a certain way now
> but I'm constantly second-guessing myself and wondering if its the best
> way to do things.
>
In that case, leave the package structure as it is unless you find 
problems with it. In fact I'd go so far as to say don't subdivide it into 
separate packages unless there's a really good reason for doing so. Once 
you've written a few programs, particularly if most of the classes in 
them require access to at least one of your common classes it becomes a 
real pain to repartition them between packages because doing so will cost 
significant effort to go through all your application classes and 
adjusting their 'import' statements. 

Most common classes tend to be quite small and you probably won't have 
all that many of them: my collection has evolved over the last 10 years 
and stand at 21 classes which contain 5800 lines of source including the 
Javadocs documentation comments, so the collection would have to grow by 
at least 50% before I'd consider splitting up that package.

This number of classes hasn't changed for a while now, though some 
classes may gain a method or two as I find extra things I need them to 
do. For example my logging class has methods corresponding to 'info' and 
'error' logging levels but there is no method equivalent to a 'warning' 
logging level. However, it is something I may need some day because 
calling error() causes the program to stop after dumping the circular 
trace buffer (if its enabled) but there is currently no way of dumping 
the buffer and letting the run continue. This is something a warn() 
method might do if I find a need for it.

> For instance, I've got some utilities classes and I put them altogether
> in a single package. But they are a mix of very different kinds of
> utilities. Some deal with String manipulation, some with dates, some
> with databases, etc. etc. Sometimes I wonder if I should take utilities
> that deal with dates and group them with lookup classes that deal with
> dates rather than group them on the basis of them being a utility or
> lookup. After all "utility" is not something I could easily define in a
> satisfying way and "lookup" is similarly unsatisfying.
> 
So are mine, which range from my logging class to a pair of classes that 
handle the client and server ends of a message oriented socket connection 
via a command line parsing class and a class for calculating and checking 
numeric identifiers that use Luhn check digits.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12469

Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in
news:jih660$s5$1@localhost.localdomain: 

> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:20:48 +0000, Novice wrote:
> 
>> I've really struggled with this. I have things set up a certain way
>> now but I'm constantly second-guessing myself and wondering if its
>> the best way to do things.
>>
> In that case, leave the package structure as it is unless you find 
> problems with it. In fact I'd go so far as to say don't subdivide it
> into separate packages unless there's a really good reason for doing
> so. Once you've written a few programs, particularly if most of the
> classes in them require access to at least one of your common classes
> it becomes a real pain to repartition them between packages because
> doing so will cost significant effort to go through all your
> application classes and adjusting their 'import' statements. 
> 
> Most common classes tend to be quite small and you probably won't have
> all that many of them: my collection has evolved over the last 10
> years and stand at 21 classes which contain 5800 lines of source
> including the Javadocs documentation comments, so the collection would
> have to grow by at least 50% before I'd consider splitting up that
> package. 
> 
I'm surprised that your common class is so small in terms of number of 
classes, especially after 10 years! I would have thought you'd have 
written many more by now....

I've got 40 classes in mine already and those are just the ones I 
consider more-or-less finished. I've got many more in my CommonCandidates  
project where I store the ones that are still just half-baked (or 
less!).I'm regularly thinking of new ones to add....

Of course some of mine are pretty trivial, like enums that only have two 
constants in them. I'm not sure how many lines of code they comprise; I 
don't know a quick way to add them up and don't quite feel like manually 
opening each, counting the lines and adding them up. I very much doubt 
mine comprise as many lines as yours. So mine are probably dramatically 
shorter than yours and probably do far less. Yours average almost 3000 
lines; DateTimeUtils, which must be my longest, is only 1300 lines long. 
It has 31 methods but most of them are quite short. 

But quantity is irrelevant in any case. I'm sure yours are far higher in 
quality than mine!

> This number of classes hasn't changed for a while now, though some 
> classes may gain a method or two as I find extra things I need them to
> do. For example my logging class has methods corresponding to 'info'
> and 'error' logging levels but there is no method equivalent to a
> 'warning' logging level. However, it is something I may need some day
> because calling error() causes the program to stop after dumping the
> circular trace buffer (if its enabled) but there is currently no way
> of dumping the buffer and letting the run continue. This is something
> a warn() method might do if I find a need for it.
> 
Well, there's not much point in building it until you find you need it. 
It sounds like you're doing well enough without it for now.

>> For instance, I've got some utilities classes and I put them
>> altogether in a single package. But they are a mix of very different
>> kinds of utilities. Some deal with String manipulation, some with
>> dates, some with databases, etc. etc. Sometimes I wonder if I should
>> take utilities that deal with dates and group them with lookup
>> classes that deal with dates rather than group them on the basis of
>> them being a utility or lookup. After all "utility" is not something
>> I could easily define in a satisfying way and "lookup" is similarly
>> unsatisfying. 
>> 
> So are mine, which range from my logging class to a pair of classes
> that handle the client and server ends of a message oriented socket
> connection via a command line parsing class and a class for
> calculating and checking numeric identifiers that use Luhn check
> digits. 
>  
Today, I decide to keep everything in my Common class in a single 
package. After discussing the merits of splitting them out into different 
packages, I realized there just wasn't any benefit to it aside from being 
able to see the whole list of elements in the package on a single page. 
And that didn't seem important at all. We'll see how this goes.

If it turns out to be a problem, I'll split them out again on some 
reasonable basis. I'm using Eclipse so creating packages and moving 
things to and from packages is a breeze; it does all the hard work of 
renaming things for you.

-- 
Novice

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#12473

On 2/27/2012 9:04 PM, Novice wrote:
> Martin Gregorie<martin@address-in-sig.invalid>  wrote in
> news:jih660$s5$1@localhost.localdomain:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:20:48 +0000, Novice wrote:
>>> I've really struggled with this. I have things set up a certain way
>>> now but I'm constantly second-guessing myself and wondering if its
>>> the best way to do things.
>>>
>> In that case, leave the package structure as it is unless you find
>> problems with it. In fact I'd go so far as to say don't subdivide it
>> into separate packages unless there's a really good reason for doing
>> so. Once you've written a few programs, particularly if most of the
>> classes in them require access to at least one of your common classes
>> it becomes a real pain to repartition them between packages because
>> doing so will cost significant effort to go through all your
>> application classes and adjusting their 'import' statements.
>>
>> Most common classes tend to be quite small and you probably won't have
>> all that many of them: my collection has evolved over the last 10
>> years and stand at 21 classes which contain 5800 lines of source
>> including the Javadocs documentation comments, so the collection would
>> have to grow by at least 50% before I'd consider splitting up that
>> package.
>>
> I'm surprised that your common class is so small in terms of number of
> classes, especially after 10 years! I would have thought you'd have
> written many more by now....
>
> I've got 40 classes in mine already and those are just the ones I
> consider more-or-less finished. I've got many more in my CommonCandidates
> project where I store the ones that are still just half-baked (or
> less!).I'm regularly thinking of new ones to add....

You will know that you need to split when you start
spending time looking after the right class scrolling up
and down, because the list is long.

I think I would have split before 40.

Arne

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#12530

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote in
news:4f4c3a5a$0$292$14726298@news.sunsite.dk: 

> On 2/27/2012 9:04 PM, Novice wrote:
>> Martin Gregorie<martin@address-in-sig.invalid>  wrote in
>> news:jih660$s5$1@localhost.localdomain:
>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:20:48 +0000, Novice wrote:
>>>> I've really struggled with this. I have things set up a certain way
>>>> now but I'm constantly second-guessing myself and wondering if its
>>>> the best way to do things.
>>>>
>>> In that case, leave the package structure as it is unless you find
>>> problems with it. In fact I'd go so far as to say don't subdivide it
>>> into separate packages unless there's a really good reason for doing
>>> so. Once you've written a few programs, particularly if most of the
>>> classes in them require access to at least one of your common
>>> classes it becomes a real pain to repartition them between packages
>>> because doing so will cost significant effort to go through all your
>>> application classes and adjusting their 'import' statements.
>>>
>>> Most common classes tend to be quite small and you probably won't
>>> have all that many of them: my collection has evolved over the last
>>> 10 years and stand at 21 classes which contain 5800 lines of source
>>> including the Javadocs documentation comments, so the collection
>>> would have to grow by at least 50% before I'd consider splitting up
>>> that package.
>>>
>> I'm surprised that your common class is so small in terms of number
>> of classes, especially after 10 years! I would have thought you'd
>> have written many more by now....
>>
>> I've got 40 classes in mine already and those are just the ones I
>> consider more-or-less finished. I've got many more in my
>> CommonCandidates project where I store the ones that are still just
>> half-baked (or less!).I'm regularly thinking of new ones to add....
> 
> You will know that you need to split when you start
> spending time looking after the right class scrolling up
> and down, because the list is long.
> 
> I think I would have split before 40.
> 

I'm torn on that. I could certainly resplit them but I really don't see 
much relationship between most of them. I do have a small handful that 
are really just String manipulation that could go together. But most of 
the rest are standalone.  

I also have a few classes that are basically used to create panels in 
GUIs. For instance, I have several class that will create a small panel 
containing a single field (text field, text area, spinner, checkbox or 
whatnot) with an optional label, but they're all independent of one 
another. It's entirely possible just to use one on a given GUI without 
ever having one of the others. Those don't feel related to me beyond the 
fact that they are JPanels so I'm not inclined to lump them together. 

-- 
Novice

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#12597

On 2/29/2012 10:11 AM, Novice wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj<arne@vajhoej.dk>  wrote in
> news:4f4c3a5a$0$292$14726298@news.sunsite.dk:
>
>> On 2/27/2012 9:04 PM, Novice wrote:
>>> Martin Gregorie<martin@address-in-sig.invalid>   wrote in
>>> news:jih660$s5$1@localhost.localdomain:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:20:48 +0000, Novice wrote:
>>>>> I've really struggled with this. I have things set up a certain way
>>>>> now but I'm constantly second-guessing myself and wondering if its
>>>>> the best way to do things.
>>>>>
>>>> In that case, leave the package structure as it is unless you find
>>>> problems with it. In fact I'd go so far as to say don't subdivide it
>>>> into separate packages unless there's a really good reason for doing
>>>> so. Once you've written a few programs, particularly if most of the
>>>> classes in them require access to at least one of your common
>>>> classes it becomes a real pain to repartition them between packages
>>>> because doing so will cost significant effort to go through all your
>>>> application classes and adjusting their 'import' statements.
>>>>
>>>> Most common classes tend to be quite small and you probably won't
>>>> have all that many of them: my collection has evolved over the last
>>>> 10 years and stand at 21 classes which contain 5800 lines of source
>>>> including the Javadocs documentation comments, so the collection
>>>> would have to grow by at least 50% before I'd consider splitting up
>>>> that package.
>>>>
>>> I'm surprised that your common class is so small in terms of number
>>> of classes, especially after 10 years! I would have thought you'd
>>> have written many more by now....
>>>
>>> I've got 40 classes in mine already and those are just the ones I
>>> consider more-or-less finished. I've got many more in my
>>> CommonCandidates project where I store the ones that are still just
>>> half-baked (or less!).I'm regularly thinking of new ones to add....
>>
>> You will know that you need to split when you start
>> spending time looking after the right class scrolling up
>> and down, because the list is long.
>>
>> I think I would have split before 40.
>>
>
> I'm torn on that. I could certainly resplit them but I really don't see
> much relationship between most of them. I do have a small handful that
> are really just String manipulation that could go together. But most of
> the rest are standalone.
>
> I also have a few classes that are basically used to create panels in
> GUIs. For instance, I have several class that will create a small panel
> containing a single field (text field, text area, spinner, checkbox or
> whatnot) with an optional label, but they're all independent of one
> another. It's entirely possible just to use one on a given GUI without
> ever having one of the others. Those don't feel related to me beyond the
> fact that they are JPanels so I'm not inclined to lump them together.

whatever
whatever.stringutils
whatever.guiutils

may work fine.

Arne

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#12510

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 02:04:44 +0000, Novice wrote:

> I'm surprised that your common class is so small in terms of number of
> classes, especially after 10 years! I would have thought you'd have
> written many more by now....
>
I don't add anything to my environ package until (a) its been written 
because I needed it in some program I was working on and (b) I needed it 
in another unrelated program. Unless/until both conditions are met it 
remains a part of the original project-specific package.
 
I'd previously done the same in C: this library would be similarly small 
except that programs that use it are written to run on OS/9, DOS/Windows 
and Linux. The functions making up the standard C libraries are not the 
same. As a result the library exists in three versions, one for each OS, 
and each is augmented with functions that I need that are standard in one 
of the other OSen. At most this requirement has doubled the size of the 
environ library and, as you might expect, this part of its content is 
similarly static. Not having to write these compatibility functions is a 
big advantage of using a WORA language like Java.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12531

Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in
news:jijmqt$m5f$1@localhost.localdomain: 

> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 02:04:44 +0000, Novice wrote:
> 
>> I'm surprised that your common class is so small in terms of number
>> of classes, especially after 10 years! I would have thought you'd
>> have written many more by now....
>>
> I don't add anything to my environ package until (a) its been written 
> because I needed it in some program I was working on and (b) I needed
> it in another unrelated program. Unless/until both conditions are met
> it remains a part of the original project-specific package.
>  
I'm basically doing the same thing, except that in some cases when I 
write something new for Project X, I feel sure it will get used again in 
upcoming projects (or be retrofitted to existing incomplete projects) so 
I put it in Common straightaway. 

> I'd previously done the same in C: this library would be similarly
> small except that programs that use it are written to run on OS/9,
> DOS/Windows and Linux. The functions making up the standard C
> libraries are not the same. As a result the library exists in three
> versions, one for each OS, and each is augmented with functions that I
> need that are standard in one of the other OSen. At most this
> requirement has doubled the size of the environ library and, as you
> might expect, this part of its content is similarly static. Not having
> to write these compatibility functions is a big advantage of using a
> WORA language like Java. 
> 
I was a neophyte C programmer in the early/mid 90s and had written one 
real program in that language to run in DOS. (A couple of friends who 
were very skilled in C helped me over the rough spots.) I was just 
starting to be keen on the language but then discovered that it was a big 
can of worms to try to port C to other platforms. I got very uneasy about 
that and looked around for other alternatives. I discovered that Java, 
which was very much in its infancy, was designed to run on lots of other 
platforms without all the work involved in porting C and that it started 
with the same syntax as C _and_ added classes like C++ (which I was also 
in the very early stage of learning). Well, I was sold and moved over to 
Java right away and have few regrets. (There are times I wish I had also 
improved my C and learned more about C++ but I suspect that would have 
started muddling them altogether a bit if I had done that.)

I envy you for being fluent in both C and Java (and probably others!). I 
have other languages but they're pretty much all very rusty from lack of 
use. Mind you, I have found that I can relearn things pretty quickly even 
after a long gap. I had occasion to look at a COBOL program a few years 
back and found it very familiar. Mind you, I doubt I'd say the same about 
C if I were to try that again ;-)


-- 
Novice

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#12546

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:25:55 +0000, Novice wrote:

> I envy you for being fluent in both C and Java (and probably others!). I
> have other languages but they're pretty much all very rusty from lack of
> use. Mind you, I have found that I can relearn things pretty quickly
> even after a long gap. I had occasion to look at a COBOL program a few
> years back and found it very familiar. Mind you, I doubt I'd say the
> same about C if I were to try that again ;-)
>
Just about all I use these days are C and Java plus a few scripting 
languages (awk, PHP, bash shell scripting and Perl if you insist). In 
another life I wrote much more COBOL than was good for me, so could 
probably get up to speed fast with that too. There are a raft of others I 
used for single projects (PL/1) or that were specific to particular 
hardware (TAL, PL/9, filetab, RPG III and various assemblers).

I'm not sure its useful to know a lot of languages: idioms often don't 
transfer don't at all well and if you're not careful you can end up 
writing the nasty sort of code best summarized as "a Real Programmer can 
write FORTRAN in any language".


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#12547

Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote in
news:jimfg8$di4$1@localhost.localdomain: 

> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:25:55 +0000, Novice wrote:
> 
>> I envy you for being fluent in both C and Java (and probably
>> others!). I have other languages but they're pretty much all very
>> rusty from lack of use. Mind you, I have found that I can relearn
>> things pretty quickly even after a long gap. I had occasion to look
>> at a COBOL program a few years back and found it very familiar. Mind
>> you, I doubt I'd say the same about C if I were to try that again ;-)
>>
> Just about all I use these days are C and Java plus a few scripting 
> languages (awk, PHP, bash shell scripting and Perl if you insist). In 
> another life I wrote much more COBOL than was good for me, so could 
> probably get up to speed fast with that too. There are a raft of
> others I used for single projects (PL/1) or that were specific to
> particular hardware (TAL, PL/9, filetab, RPG III and various
> assemblers). 
> 
> I'm not sure its useful to know a lot of languages: idioms often don't
> transfer don't at all well and if you're not careful you can end up 
> writing the nasty sort of code best summarized as "a Real Programmer
> can write FORTRAN in any language".
> 
> 

I'm inclined to agree with you, Martin. I feel good about knowing at 
least one language that is very widely known and used, Java. And I can 
always fall back on COBOL in a pinch ;-) Some of the others, even if I 
refreshed myself on them, would be of no use anywhere. I don't imagine 
CSP is used anywhere any more. Or whatever 4GL Online Express was part 
of. ;-) 

I wonder if any employers consider it a mitigating factor if you know 
several languages if you are applying to them and Java is not their shop 
language (or one of them)? Or do they just drop you from consideration 
immediately and not even consider training you in their language? My 
impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list of 
qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. And they 
don't seem to want to have to spend any money training anyone for 
anything. 

I was talking to a friend who does volunteer work at a hospital and she 
was furious. She said even getting a job as a porter in a hospital - 
basically someone who pushes carts around and can apparently be fully 
trained in 20 minutes - requires a community college diploma with 8 
required credits before they can get that diploma. She spoke of 
"credentialism run amuck". What next: a university degree in Chemical 
Engineering to be able to make coffee at Starbucks?....


-- 
Novice

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