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General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed

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  General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-28 15:41 +0000
    Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-11-28 11:37 -0500
      Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-28 17:04 +0000
        Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-28 11:09 -0800
          Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-28 19:48 +0000
            Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-28 12:14 -0800
              Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Rhino <no.offline.contact.please@example.com> - 2011-11-28 21:28 +0000
                Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed markspace <-@.> - 2011-11-28 14:14 -0800
                  Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-29 05:24 +0000
                    Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-11-29 20:44 +0000
    Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-28 17:53 +0000
      Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-28 19:52 +0000
      Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-11-29 07:20 -0400
        Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-29 16:06 +0000
          Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-29 12:04 -0800
            Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-30 00:12 +0000
              Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-11-29 22:02 -0800
                Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-30 20:28 +0000
    Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-28 10:03 -0800
      Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-28 10:44 -0800
        Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-28 20:13 +0000
          Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-28 12:59 -0800
        Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-11-29 14:04 -0800
          Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-11-29 15:07 -0800
      Re: General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed Novice <novice@example..com> - 2011-11-28 19:56 +0000

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#10292 — General Consulting Advice Urgently Needed

I've got some questions about consulting as a Java developer. Thanks to a 
personal connection, a project needing a Java developer has just come to 
my attention and I can probably get this contract if I play my cards 
right. 

Unfortunately, as I've said elsewhere in this newsgroup, I'm a Java 
hobbyist and have done very little paid work as a Java developer so I'm 
not completely sure on how to land this project. Most of my past 
consulting has been developing websites so I'm not sure on several 
details of how to present and sell myself.

The opportunity is literally sitting in my inbox as we speak in the form 
of an email from my friend's friend. He's asking me what my rate is and 
I'm not sure what to answer. I don't know what the going rate is for Java 
development in this area since there isn't a whole lot of Java 
development around here and I have no idea what rates people are asking. 
Frankly, I'm willing to do the work at almost any rate he's willing to 
offer, although, naturally, I'd rather get more than less. I'm also 
concerned that if I set my rate too low, he'll think that I'm really 
awful at what I do and look elsewhere for someone to fill the 
opportunity. Can anyone suggest a way to come up with a rate that 
encourages him to give me the job, even if we have to negotiate it down 
(or up) to something we both can live with? 

In a nutshell, if I tell him $10/hr, I think I'll be signalling that I'm 
so awful that that's the best I think I can get. If I tell him $100/hr, I 
think his expectations may be beyond my abilities and/or I'll be so high 
that he won't even bother to try to talk me down. I don't want to give 
him a number that is going to scare him off and convince him that this is 
not worth further discussion.

A related issue is what I think of as R&D work. In the past, if I've 
gotten jobs to do something that I don't entirely know how to do, I've 
made a point of absorbing the R&D costs and not passing them to the 
customer. For example, if someone wanted me to build a website and 
include an online shopping component so that customers could buy things 
via a shopping cart and credit card, if I didn't know how to implement a 
shopping cart and set up a merchant account, I'd research that on my own 
time and not charge the customer, since he basically assumed I knew how 
to do that going in. It didn't feel right to charge him for the time it 
took me to get up to speed. I treated it as an investment in my own 
education and did the learning on my own time, charging him only to 
implement the solution, once I figured out how to do it. I'm not sure if 
that's standard practice among other consultants or something very odd, 
maybe even unprofessional. I'd really like your thoughts on how I should 
handle this. Should I assure him that the things I have to teach myself 
in order to complete this project won't show up on his bill? Or will that 
seem unprofessional? Or is he going to expect to pay me while I teach 
myself the elements of his project that I don't already know? 

As I said, this opportunity is sitting in my inbox and I don't want to 
keep him waiting excessively. I know that requests for urgent help are 
greatly frowned upon in newsgroups and believe me, I'm kicking myself 
that I didn't figure out this kind of stuff long ago but it just wasn't 
anything I particularly needed to know at the time. Any advice you can 
give me would be much appreciated. Sorry to put it on such an urgent 
footing; this came up very suddenly and unexpectedly. 

-- 
Novice

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#10293

On 11/28/2011 10:41 AM, Novice wrote:
> I've got some questions about consulting as a Java developer. Thanks to a
> personal connection, a project needing a Java developer has just come to
> my attention and I can probably get this contract if I play my cards
> right.
>
> Unfortunately, as I've said elsewhere in this newsgroup, I'm a Java
> hobbyist and have done very little paid work as a Java developer so I'm
> not completely sure on how to land this project. Most of my past
> consulting has been developing websites so I'm not sure on several
> details of how to present and sell myself.
>
> The opportunity is literally sitting in my inbox as we speak in the form
> of an email from my friend's friend. He's asking me what my rate is and
> I'm not sure what to answer. I don't know what the going rate is for Java
> development in this area since there isn't a whole lot of Java
> development around here and I have no idea what rates people are asking.
> Frankly, I'm willing to do the work at almost any rate he's willing to
> offer, although, naturally, I'd rather get more than less. I'm also
> concerned that if I set my rate too low, he'll think that I'm really
> awful at what I do and look elsewhere for someone to fill the
> opportunity. Can anyone suggest a way to come up with a rate that
> encourages him to give me the job, even if we have to negotiate it down
> (or up) to something we both can live with?
>
> In a nutshell, if I tell him $10/hr, I think I'll be signalling that I'm
> so awful that that's the best I think I can get. If I tell him $100/hr, I
> think his expectations may be beyond my abilities and/or I'll be so high
> that he won't even bother to try to talk me down. I don't want to give
> him a number that is going to scare him off and convince him that this is
> not worth further discussion.
>
> A related issue is what I think of as R&D work. In the past, if I've
> gotten jobs to do something that I don't entirely know how to do, I've
> made a point of absorbing the R&D costs and not passing them to the
> customer. For example, if someone wanted me to build a website and
> include an online shopping component so that customers could buy things
> via a shopping cart and credit card, if I didn't know how to implement a
> shopping cart and set up a merchant account, I'd research that on my own
> time and not charge the customer, since he basically assumed I knew how
> to do that going in. It didn't feel right to charge him for the time it
> took me to get up to speed. I treated it as an investment in my own
> education and did the learning on my own time, charging him only to
> implement the solution, once I figured out how to do it. I'm not sure if
> that's standard practice among other consultants or something very odd,
> maybe even unprofessional. I'd really like your thoughts on how I should
> handle this. Should I assure him that the things I have to teach myself
> in order to complete this project won't show up on his bill? Or will that
> seem unprofessional? Or is he going to expect to pay me while I teach
> myself the elements of his project that I don't already know?
>
> As I said, this opportunity is sitting in my inbox and I don't want to
> keep him waiting excessively. I know that requests for urgent help are
> greatly frowned upon in newsgroups and believe me, I'm kicking myself
> that I didn't figure out this kind of stuff long ago but it just wasn't
> anything I particularly needed to know at the time. Any advice you can
> give me would be much appreciated. Sorry to put it on such an urgent
> footing; this came up very suddenly and unexpectedly.
>
<http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Certification=Sun_Certified_Java_Programmer_%28SCJP%29/Hourly_Rate>

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#10294

Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:jb0d7h$4h1$1@dont-email.me: 

> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Certification=Sun_Certified_Java_Pr
> ogrammer_%28SCJP%29/Hourly_Rate 



Thank you! That's a great resource for determining what I should charge. 

-- 
Novice

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#10302

On 11/28/2011 9:04 AM, Novice wrote:
> Jeff Higgins<jeff@invalid.invalid>  wrote in
> news:jb0d7h$4h1$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Certification=Sun_Certified_Java_Pr
>> ogrammer_%28SCJP%29/Hourly_Rate
>
>
>
> Thank you! That's a great resource for determining what I should charge.
>


My feeling on those rates:  they're for full-time permanent employees, 
not contractors.  I.e., they include benefits.  I'd at least double 
those rates for an independent contractor.

I think not charging customers for your education is fine, but only if 
they are paying you full rate.  If they force you down too much because 
you aren't experienced, then they do pay for everything, because they're 
paying for a novice engineer.

As for selling yourself, I do this rather carefully.  You don't have to 
describe yourself as a "hobbyist" but do describe yourself as a 
beginner.  DO NOT sign a contract that describes you otherwise.  (If 
you're not used to signing contracts, get advice on how to do so.) 
Describe your actual experience in web design, including working with 
people on a team, meeting deadlines, being professional, commitment, 
etc.  Sell the experience you actually do have.  Let the customer decide 
whether you are qualified.

I don't like fixed-price contracts.  Estimating software is hard, and as 
a novice you've got no basis to work from.  I'd seriously push time 
estimates on the customer; make sure the contract you sign is for an 
hourly rate.  At your level of experience you can only meet with 
disaster if you try to provide a fixed time and cost contract.

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#10304

markspace <-@.> wrote in news:jb0m9l$3n3$1@dont-email.me:

> On 11/28/2011 9:04 AM, Novice wrote:
>> Jeff Higgins<jeff@invalid.invalid>  wrote in
>> news:jb0d7h$4h1$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> 
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Certification=Sun_Certified_Java_Pr
>>> ogrammer_%28SCJP%29/Hourly_Rate
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you! That's a great resource for determining what I should 
charge.
>>
> 
> 
> My feeling on those rates:  they're for full-time permanent employees, 
> not contractors.  I.e., they include benefits.  I'd at least double 
> those rates for an independent contractor.
> 
Good catch! I didn't realize that. That changes things considerably for 
me....

> I think not charging customers for your education is fine, but only if 
> they are paying you full rate.  If they force you down too much because 
> you aren't experienced, then they do pay for everything, because 
they're 
> paying for a novice engineer.
>
Fair enough. So you'd suggest asking something like $80/hr (I was leaning 
toward $40 based on the payscale page) and explaining that I would not be 
charging them for my learning time at that rate, right? 
 
> As for selling yourself, I do this rather carefully.  You don't have to 
> describe yourself as a "hobbyist" but do describe yourself as a 
> beginner.  

I know that "hobbyist" is not the best word but I wanted something that 
would suggest enthusiasm and imply that I wasn't a beginner. I've 
actually been coding in Java since 1998 (with a gap of a few years). I 
just haven't been getting paid for most of that coding. "Beginner" sounds 
more like a guy who just started into Java a few months back. Even 
"advanced beginner" sounds better than "beginner", although it has a bit 
of an oxymoron feel....

> DO NOT sign a contract that describes you otherwise.  (If 
> you're not used to signing contracts, get advice on how to do so.) 

I've signed contracts before - I'm one of those weird people who actually 
READS documents before I sign them (at least most of the time) - but any 
gotchas or common mistakes you can point me to would be very helpful.

> Describe your actual experience in web design, including working with 
> people on a team, meeting deadlines, being professional, commitment, 
> etc.  Sell the experience you actually do have.  Let the customer 
decide 
> whether you are qualified.
>
Fair enough. I'm not the most self-confident person in the world in the 
first place and I do tend to get pessimistic on whether my experience is 
adequate when applying for jobs. Sometimes, I disqualify myself without 
even giving the customer a chance to decide and I'm not always sure that 
was appropriate.
 
> I don't like fixed-price contracts.  Estimating software is hard, and 
as 
> a novice you've got no basis to work from.  I'd seriously push time 
> estimates on the customer; make sure the contract you sign is for an 
> hourly rate.  At your level of experience you can only meet with 
> disaster if you try to provide a fixed time and cost contract.
> 

He's actually asking if I'd do the work on a fixed-price contract given a 
spec. Given that I'm chronically over-optimistic on how long things will 
take, a fixed price contract would seem to be a very bad idea. But how do 
I resist that? What are the standard justifications for saying no to that 
question?

Also, when you say that you'd seriously push time estimates on the 
customer, I'm not sure what you're saying. Can you clarify please?
 
-- 
Novice

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#10308

On 11/28/2011 11:48 AM, Novice wrote:
> He's actually asking if I'd do the work on a fixed-price contract given a
> spec. Given that I'm chronically over-optimistic on how long things will
> take, a fixed price contract would seem to be a very bad idea. But how do
> I resist that? What are the standard justifications for saying no to that
> question?


I can't give you one.  If the customer actually has a reasonable 
specification (and not just a wish list), then the only reasonable 
counter offer is "I can't estimate this."

You can try to estimate it-- start working on the spec.  See what it 
entails.  Are you really capable of doing it?  How long is it taking? 
In essence here you're building a prototype to estimate the job. 
Remember that estimates are hard and usually take time and cost money. 
If you get to a point where you really can't see spending more time on 
it, consider giving them a partial estimate for the parts you can do. 
It's better than nothing.


>
> Also, when you say that you'd seriously push time estimates on the
> customer, I'm not sure what you're saying. Can you clarify please?


I mean give them a rate and let them determine how long it should take 
someone of your experience.

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#10310

markspace <-@.> wrote in news:jb0q3v$vtd$1@dont-email.me:

> On 11/28/2011 11:48 AM, Novice wrote:
>> He's actually asking if I'd do the work on a fixed-price contract
>> given a spec. Given that I'm chronically over-optimistic on how long
>> things will take, a fixed price contract would seem to be a very bad
>> idea. But how do I resist that? What are the standard justifications
>> for saying no to that question?
> 
> 
> I can't give you one.  If the customer actually has a reasonable 
> specification (and not just a wish list), then the only reasonable 
> counter offer is "I can't estimate this."
> 
> You can try to estimate it-- start working on the spec.  See what it 
> entails.  Are you really capable of doing it?  How long is it taking? 
> In essence here you're building a prototype to estimate the job. 
> Remember that estimates are hard and usually take time and cost money.
> If you get to a point where you really can't see spending more time on
> it, consider giving them a partial estimate for the parts you can do. 
> It's better than nothing.
> 
Is it reasonable to tell him that I won't commit to the project or offer 
any estimates until I feel I understand the spec? That would seem fair to 
me but I don't know if a customer would see it that way. I'm assuming I'd  
have to sign a non-disclosure agreement before he'd let me see the spec. 
At that point, I could imagine spending several days or maybe even a 
couple of weeks poring over the spec and making sure I'm clear on what he 
wants, then passing on the project altogether, passing on parts that I 
didn't think I could do, or accepting the whole project. 

I could easily imagine this taking a few hours of the customer's time as 
I confirm assumptions that I make as I read the spec. I'm not sure how he 
would feel about a drain on his time like that. Would that be something 
he'd expect? Or would he expect me to be so self-sufficient that anything 
beyond a few cursory questions would be a problem for him?

Also, would you agree that he should be charged for the time I put into 
understanding the spec (aside from a token free initial hour or 
whatever), even if I end up passing on the project altogether?   
> 
>>
>> Also, when you say that you'd seriously push time estimates on the
>> customer, I'm not sure what you're saying. Can you clarify please?
> 
> 
> I mean give them a rate and let them determine how long it should take
> someone of your experience.
> 
I'm getting the impression so far that they are basically a PHP shop and 
don't have much/any Java expertise so I'm not sure how they'd estimate 
things like coding time. How would they estimate tasks that maybe can't 
be done in their shop language? But maybe I'm wrong and they do have some 
strong Java people and just have them over-committed for the time being. 
I don't think I'd want to commit to estimates that were made by someone 
that wasn't at least as expert in Java as I am, and preferably more so. 



-- 
Rhino

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#10313

On 11/28/2011 1:28 PM, Rhino wrote:
> Is it reasonable to tell him that I won't commit to the project or
> offer any estimates until I feel I understand the spec?

If you feel the spec is lacking, then certainly.  It might be best to
wait until you see what the customer is offering first.

> That would seem fair to me but I don't know if a customer would see
> it that way. I'm assuming I'd have to sign a non-disclosure agreement
> before he'd let me see the spec.

NDAs are normal, yes.

> At that point, I could imagine spending several days or maybe even a
> couple of weeks poring over the spec and making sure I'm clear on
> what he wants, then passing on the project altogether, passing on
> parts that I didn't think I could do, or accepting the whole
> project.

Don't forget to calculate what you'd make in those days or weeks at your
normal rate.  Decide if you wish to donate that much money to the customer.

>
> I could easily imagine this taking a few hours of the customer's time
> as I confirm assumptions that I make as I read the spec. I'm not
> sure how he would feel about a drain on his time like that. Would
> that be something he'd expect? Or would he expect me to be so
> self-sufficient that anything beyond a few cursory questions would be
> a problem for him?
>

That's their look-out.  You're donating time to start the project, they
should too.  If they complain, then work something out, or ask them to 
look elsewhere.


> Also, would you agree that he should be charged for the time I put
> into understanding the spec (aside from a token free initial hour or
> whatever), even if I end up passing on the project altogether?


That's up to you, although I'd certainly consider adding any upfront 
costs to a bid that I made.


> I'm getting the impression so far that they are basically a PHP shop
> and don't have much/any Java expertise so I'm not sure how they'd
> estimate things like coding time.


This is a large red flag for me.  If they have no idea what they're 
doing, then there's no recourse for you if things go sideways.  Be very 
careful.  Programming can be relatively easy.  Configuring a production 
environment is a different story.  And specing out server hardware is 
harder still.  Try to exclude installation of the software if you can.

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#10320

markspace <-@.> wrote in news:jb1145$hv8$1@dont-email.me:

> On 11/28/2011 1:28 PM, Rhino wrote:
>> Is it reasonable to tell him that I won't commit to the project or
>> offer any estimates until I feel I understand the spec?
> 
> If you feel the spec is lacking, then certainly.  It might be best to
> wait until you see what the customer is offering first.
> 
>> That would seem fair to me but I don't know if a customer would see
>> it that way. I'm assuming I'd have to sign a non-disclosure agreement
>> before he'd let me see the spec.
> 
> NDAs are normal, yes.
> 
>> At that point, I could imagine spending several days or maybe even a
>> couple of weeks poring over the spec and making sure I'm clear on
>> what he wants, then passing on the project altogether, passing on
>> parts that I didn't think I could do, or accepting the whole
>> project.
> 
> Don't forget to calculate what you'd make in those days or weeks at
> your normal rate.  Decide if you wish to donate that much money to the
> customer. 
> 
 
>>
>> I could easily imagine this taking a few hours of the customer's time
>> as I confirm assumptions that I make as I read the spec. I'm not
>> sure how he would feel about a drain on his time like that. Would
>> that be something he'd expect? Or would he expect me to be so
>> self-sufficient that anything beyond a few cursory questions would be
>> a problem for him?
>>
> 
> That's their look-out.  You're donating time to start the project,
> they should too.  If they complain, then work something out, or ask
> them to look elsewhere.
> 
> 
>> Also, would you agree that he should be charged for the time I put
>> into understanding the spec (aside from a token free initial hour or
>> whatever), even if I end up passing on the project altogether?
> 
> 
> That's up to you, although I'd certainly consider adding any upfront 
> costs to a bid that I made.
> 
So that's not an unreasonable thing to ask, although I shouldn't take it 
for granted that he will go for it, right? He might want me to commit 
within a day of getting the spec; if that happens and I'm not comfortable 
yet, I think I'd be crazy (or foolhardy) to go ahead with the job.
> 
>> I'm getting the impression so far that they are basically a PHP shop
>> and don't have much/any Java expertise so I'm not sure how they'd
>> estimate things like coding time.
> 
> 
> This is a large red flag for me.  If they have no idea what they're 
> doing, then there's no recourse for you if things go sideways.  Be
> very careful.  Programming can be relatively easy.  Configuring a
> production environment is a different story.  And specing out server
> hardware is harder still.  Try to exclude installation of the software
> if you can. 
> 
All good points. Their website describes them as a PHP shop but that may 
omit tons of expertise in other technologies that aren't universal within 
the shop. I think I need to find that out pretty clearly before reacting 
as if it is a certainty that they have no Java expertise. 

I don't even know for sure if they are expecting me to do the whole 
project or they just want me as one person on a team. It feels like the 
former but they haven't actually said one way or the other.


-- 
Novice

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#10335

On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 05:24:36 +0000, Novice wrote:

> So that's not an unreasonable thing to ask, although I shouldn't take it
> for granted that he will go for it, right? He might want me to commit
> within a day of getting the spec; if that happens and I'm not
> comfortable yet, I think I'd be crazy (or foolhardy) to go ahead with
> the job.
>
If the requirements are complete enough to quote on you might do so, 
though IME this needs a spec that has enough detail to let you count 
programs/processes, assign complexity scores to each so you can estimate 
development time for each. Don't forget that you also need to allow for 
unit, integration and system testing and also to estimate the schema 
complexity if you need to implement or understand a database schema. 

OTOH, if the requirements are unclear or don't contain enough detail to 
quote on, you might suggest a preliminary contract to rewrite the 
requirements into a form that contains enough fixed detail to allow a 
fixed price estimate to be made. Its either that or add contingency to 
allow cover the amount of woolliness in the requirements.

In any case you'll need to add a clause to cover requirement changes and 
their impact on project cost and timescale: these can be considerable of 
the client doesn't know what he wants or, equally problematic, hasn't had 
any input from the people who'll use the end product: in general a 
manager doesn't know what his staff actually do - he only thinks he does.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#10297

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote in news:rate-20111128181722
@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de:

> Novice <novice@example..com> writes:
>>Most of my past consulting has been developing websites so
>>I'm not sure on several details of how to present and sell
>>myself.
> 
>   I think it helps to be able to estimate what you can do and
>   what you cannot do and then to communicate this honestly.
> 
That's certainly what I want to do. Sometimes though, I get the 
impression that consultants claim to know much more than they actually do 
and then scramble like mad to do the actual work when they get the job. 
Sometimes, they rise to the challenge and manage to do an acceptable job. 
Other times, things don't turn out so well.

>>He's asking me what my rate is and I'm not sure what to answer.
> 
>   You can search the web for rates of developers and then ask
>   for the average rate or one standard deviation below it
>   (since you are unexperienced as a paid Java developer).
> 
>>Frankly, I'm willing to do the work at almost any rate he's willing to 
>>offer, although, naturally, I'd rather get more than less.
> 
>   If you are willing to work at almost any rate, how do you
>   pay your rent at the end of the month? You should at least
>   cover your opportunity costs, i.e., what you would be paid
>   otherwise, when you would do something else.
>
Sorry, I should have put that differently. Obviously, I have to cover my 
costs and make more from this consulting job than I can from anything 
else available. 
  
>>In a nutshell, if I tell him $10/hr
> 
>   That sounds too low.

I didn't seriously mean to propose a $10/hr or $100/hr rate, I was just 
throwing out extreme examples to illustrate my point.
> 
>>If I tell him $100/hr.
> 
>   That sounds too high. (However, I have no idea what is
>   actually average.)
> 
>   Let's take the logarithmic average:
>   31.6227766016837933199889354443272.
> 
>   This still sounds clearly below average to me. You do not
>   only need to pay your rent, but also your health insurance,
>   office rent, expenses, equipment, liability risk, retirement
>   provision and savings for times of unemployment. And after
>   all your costs are covered, there should be something left.
>   And you don't want to spoil the rates.
> 
Based on the other reply to my question, I'm thinking $40/hr is a good 
rate to propose, although I'm inclined to mention that it is negotiable. 
Or would that be assumed by the customer? 

Also, once I quote a price like that, is it assumed that the rate covers 
all of my expenses? For instance, if the customer requests to meet in 
person at his office, do I simply charge that rate for the time it takes 
me to get to his office and pay for the gas out of that? Or would he 
expect to pay the hourly rate PLUS actual out-of-pocket gas expense (or a 
fixed rate like 50 cents a mile?) I'm embarassed that I don't know this 
already but I just want to be sure that I don't cause myself trouble by 
doing things in a manner that he will consider unprofessional.

-- 
Novice

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#10305

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote in news:meetings-20111128190807
@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de:

> Novice <novice@example..com> writes:
>>For instance, if the customer requests to meet in person at
>>his office, do I simply charge that rate for the time it
>>takes me to get to his office and pay for the gas out of
>>that?
> 
>   My personal decision: The first personal meeting with a new
>   customer is always »free of charge and without obligation«.
> 
>   Otherwise, personally, I would say that meetings in my home
>   town are free, when they comprehend less than, say, 5 % of
>   the time of the paid work and less than 2 hours per month.
> 
>   Also, meetings to initiate or negotiate the contract should
>   not be charged, but meetings to work out details of
>   requirement specifications of a project can be charged.
> 
>   I already have been paid for meetings by different customers,
>   so, where I live, this is not uncommon or strange.
> 
>   I would charge for expenses, when they become significant,
>   which, in my case means, when I have to leave my home town
>   and its direct vincinity. However, local craftsmen here charge
>   a rather high lump-sum for their drive, even if it's small.
> 
>   But all of the above only reflects my personal view and
>   my limited personal experience.
> 


Thanks Stefan, that sounds very close to what I want to do myself. The main 
thing is that these are things that typically get worked out between the 
customer and the contractor, not something that that everyone does the same 
way every time. The customer is not going to feel I am unprofessional if I 
raise these issues and negotiate them. Right?


-- 
Novice

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#10322

On 11-11-28 01:53 PM, Novice wrote:
> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote in news:rate-20111128181722
> @ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de:
> 
>> Novice <novice@example..com> writes:
>>> Most of my past consulting has been developing websites so
>>> I'm not sure on several details of how to present and sell
>>> myself.
>>
>>   I think it helps to be able to estimate what you can do and
>>   what you cannot do and then to communicate this honestly.
>>
> That's certainly what I want to do. Sometimes though, I get the 
> impression that consultants claim to know much more than they actually do 
> and then scramble like mad to do the actual work when they get the job. 
> Sometimes, they rise to the challenge and manage to do an acceptable job. 
> Other times, things don't turn out so well.

Some consultants - or the consulting bosses who hire them out, if they
work for a larger consultancy - do skirt the truth, or overly embellish,
or lie. It's not an ethical or productive thing to do.

It's always, IMO, abundantly clear in a contract as to what you should
be knowledgeable about, and how expert you should be on this thing or
that other thing. And you had best be, because that's the expectation of
the client.

General-purpose Java programmers - even consultants - do not tend to be
experts, and reasonable clients don't expect that. What they do expect
is journeyman competency. Effectively a client in this scenario wants a
contractor who will perform at least as well as someone he might want to
hire FT for the equivalent position. If that equivalent position is not
that of a technical architect or senior analyst, but of an intermediate
programmer, then there is not usually an expectation that the contractor
will have the skills of a senior architect (the subject of
skills-contract needs mismatch is a whole different topic).

An example of a mistake one could make is to be knowledgeable in JSF
only, say, but make out like Spring MVC or Struts 2 won't be a problem
either. In fact it almost always will be a problem, in the timeframe of
a typical contract, and you'd be dishonest in letting the client believe
that you could do a competent job of Spring MVC.

[ SNIP ]
>>
> Based on the other reply to my question, I'm thinking $40/hr is a good 
> rate to propose, although I'm inclined to mention that it is negotiable. 
> Or would that be assumed by the customer? 

In North America, for general-purpose Java work done by an
intermediate-level programmer, $40/hr is pretty good for your take-home.
I'd add $10-$20 to cover contractor overhead.

My recommendations are based entirely on your stated level of
experience, the probable nature of the work, the fact that your overhead
very likely doesn't include upkeep on a bricks-and-mortar consultancy
office, things like that.

The client will never negotiate _up_. :-)

> Also, once I quote a price like that, is it assumed that the rate covers 
> all of my expenses? For instance, if the customer requests to meet in 
> person at his office, do I simply charge that rate for the time it takes 
> me to get to his office and pay for the gas out of that? Or would he 
> expect to pay the hourly rate PLUS actual out-of-pocket gas expense (or a 
> fixed rate like 50 cents a mile?) I'm embarassed that I don't know this 
> already but I just want to be sure that I don't cause myself trouble by 
> doing things in a manner that he will consider unprofessional.
> 
Your rate covers usual travel, as a rule. We're not talking about air
travel here. If the contract *work* entails travel, that's a different
matter.

AHS
-- 
You should know the problem before you try to solve it.
Example: When my son was three he cried about a problem with his hand. I
kissed it several times and asked him about the problem. He peed on his
hand.
-- Radia Perlman, inventor of spanning tree protocol

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#10328

Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> wrote in
news:Gd3Bq.225$Q83.62@newsfe17.iad: 

> On 11-11-28 01:53 PM, Novice wrote:
>> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote in news:rate-20111128181722
>> @ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de:
>> 
>>> Novice <novice@example..com> writes:
>>>> Most of my past consulting has been developing websites so
>>>> I'm not sure on several details of how to present and sell
>>>> myself.
>>>
>>>   I think it helps to be able to estimate what you can do and
>>>   what you cannot do and then to communicate this honestly.
>>>
>> That's certainly what I want to do. Sometimes though, I get the 
>> impression that consultants claim to know much more than they
>> actually do and then scramble like mad to do the actual work when
>> they get the job. Sometimes, they rise to the challenge and manage to
>> do an acceptable job. Other times, things don't turn out so well.
> 
> Some consultants - or the consulting bosses who hire them out, if they
> work for a larger consultancy - do skirt the truth, or overly
> embellish, or lie. It's not an ethical or productive thing to do.
> 
> It's always, IMO, abundantly clear in a contract as to what you should
> be knowledgeable about, and how expert you should be on this thing or
> that other thing. And you had best be, because that's the expectation
> of the client.
> 
> General-purpose Java programmers - even consultants - do not tend to
> be experts, and reasonable clients don't expect that. What they do
> expect is journeyman competency. Effectively a client in this scenario
> wants a contractor who will perform at least as well as someone he
> might want to hire FT for the equivalent position. If that equivalent
> position is not that of a technical architect or senior analyst, but
> of an intermediate programmer, then there is not usually an
> expectation that the contractor will have the skills of a senior
> architect (the subject of skills-contract needs mismatch is a whole
> different topic). 
> 
> An example of a mistake one could make is to be knowledgeable in JSF
> only, say, but make out like Spring MVC or Struts 2 won't be a problem
> either. In fact it almost always will be a problem, in the timeframe
> of a typical contract, and you'd be dishonest in letting the client
> believe that you could do a competent job of Spring MVC.
>
Which raises an excellent point. Just what GUI is the best way to go 
these days? The customer wants a desktop application that will run on 
Windows and Mac. I'm mostly familiar with Swing and see no obvious reason 
why it couldn't do the job required by the customer. Would Spring MVC or 
Struts 2 be better? If so, why? 

I'm not sure what the learning curve would be to get up to speed on 
Spring or Struts. I just looked at two  YouTube videos, one on Spring and 
one on Struts and found both pretty dreadful. I'm sure the products are 
good but the videos were very poorly produced with very poor presenters 
with heavy accents and rather unfocused content. They were chock full of 
vague generalities and very skimpy on actual details. I'm optimistic that 
there are better tutorials on both subjects and that I can find those 
better tutorials if they exist but, so far, I'm not clear on when/why 
Spring or Struts would be better than Swing.  

This again raises the question of whether customer should pay me my going 
rate to learn Spring or Struts or whether I should eat the cost of the 
learning?

 
> [ SNIP ]
>>>
>> Based on the other reply to my question, I'm thinking $40/hr is a
>> good rate to propose, although I'm inclined to mention that it is
>> negotiable. Or would that be assumed by the customer? 
> 
> In North America, for general-purpose Java work done by an
> intermediate-level programmer, $40/hr is pretty good for your
> take-home. I'd add $10-$20 to cover contractor overhead.
>
Markspace suggests doubling $40/hr to $80/hr. I'm tempted to do that 
given the cost of buying benefits and so forth....
 
> My recommendations are based entirely on your stated level of
> experience, the probable nature of the work, the fact that your
> overhead very likely doesn't include upkeep on a bricks-and-mortar
> consultancy office, things like that.
> 
> The client will never negotiate _up_. :-)
> 
>> Also, once I quote a price like that, is it assumed that the rate
>> covers all of my expenses? For instance, if the customer requests to
>> meet in person at his office, do I simply charge that rate for the
>> time it takes me to get to his office and pay for the gas out of
>> that? Or would he expect to pay the hourly rate PLUS actual
>> out-of-pocket gas expense (or a fixed rate like 50 cents a mile?) I'm
>> embarassed that I don't know this already but I just want to be sure
>> that I don't cause myself trouble by doing things in a manner that he
>> will consider unprofessional. 
>> 
> Your rate covers usual travel, as a rule. We're not talking about air
> travel here. If the contract *work* entails travel, that's a different
> matter.
> 
The customer is not in the same city as I am. A commute of up to two 
hours (one way) would be necessary to go to their offices each time. I'm 
hoping he doesn't object to me from working from home regularly but I'm 
not sure what the normal expectation is for commuting from out of town. 
If I was a fulltime employee, I'd be expected to eat the cost of the trip 
and not get paid for the commute time either. As a contractor, would the 
customer expect me to bill for time or gas or both? 


-- 
Novice

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#10331

Novice wrote:
> Which raises an excellent point. Just what GUI is the best way to go 
> these days? The customer wants a desktop application that will run on 
> Windows and Mac. I'm mostly familiar with Swing and see no obvious reason 
> why it couldn't do the job required by the customer. Would Spring MVC or 
> Struts 2 be better? If so, why? 

Spring MVC is not a GUI.

Struts is not a GUI.

Did you look at the Web sites for those frameworks?  It's obvious that they are not GUIs.

> I'm not sure what the learning curve would be to get up to speed on 
> Spring or Struts. I just looked at two  YouTube videos, one on Spring and 
> one on Struts and found both pretty dreadful. I'm sure the products are 
> good but the videos were very poorly produced with very poor presenters 

Struts is good.  I am not pleased with Spring.  Most of what Spring offers has been supplanted by standard Java and Java EE annotations.

> with heavy accents and rather unfocused content. They were chock full of 
> vague generalities and very skimpy on actual details. I'm optimistic that 
> there are better tutorials on both subjects and that I can find those 
> better tutorials if they exist but, so far, I'm not clear on when/why 
> Spring or Struts would be better than Swing.  

Applea and oranges.  They aren't even for the same architecture as Swing.

> This again raises the question of whether customer should pay me my going 
> rate to learn Spring or Struts or whether I should eat the cost of the 
> learning?

You should at least learn enough to discern what is relevant and what is not before contemplating entering into such a contract.

-- 
Lew

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#10342

Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> wrote in
news:30155783.624.1322597084233.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prfb10: 

> Novice wrote:
>> Which raises an excellent point. Just what GUI is the best way to go 
>> these days? The customer wants a desktop application that will run on
>> Windows and Mac. I'm mostly familiar with Swing and see no obvious
>> reason why it couldn't do the job required by the customer. Would
>> Spring MVC or Struts 2 be better? If so, why? 
> 
> Spring MVC is not a GUI.
> 
> Struts is not a GUI.
> 
> Did you look at the Web sites for those frameworks?  It's obvious that
> they are not GUIs. 
> 
Sorry, you are absolutely right. I glanced only very briefly - a few 
seconds - at the Spring website and clicked on Tutorials; that took me to 
the YouTube videos which didn't specifically mention its applicability. I 
just stayed in YouTube to look at a Struts video without even examining 
the Struts website. Arved's remarks elsewhere in the thread put Struts 
and Spring into my head but I didn't review their natures sufficiently. I 
was eager to reply as quickly as possible to the client's email and got 
ahead of myself.  

>> I'm not sure what the learning curve would be to get up to speed on 
>> Spring or Struts. I just looked at two  YouTube videos, one on Spring
>> and one on Struts and found both pretty dreadful. I'm sure the
>> products are good but the videos were very poorly produced with very
>> poor presenters 
> 
> Struts is good.  I am not pleased with Spring.  Most of what Spring
> offers has been supplanted by standard Java and Java EE annotations. 
> 
>> with heavy accents and rather unfocused content. They were chock full
>> of vague generalities and very skimpy on actual details. I'm
>> optimistic that there are better tutorials on both subjects and that
>> I can find those better tutorials if they exist but, so far, I'm not
>> clear on when/why Spring or Struts would be better than Swing.  
> 
> Applea and oranges.  They aren't even for the same architecture as
> Swing. 
> 
>> This again raises the question of whether customer should pay me my
>> going rate to learn Spring or Struts or whether I should eat the cost
>> of the learning?
> 
> You should at least learn enough to discern what is relevant and what
> is not before contemplating entering into such a contract. 
> 
Touche! I certainly deserve that for this mistake. 

-- 
Novice

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#10348

Novice wrote:
> Touche! I certainly deserve that for this mistake. 

You have an excellent attitude and you will succeed brilliantly in software development.

As for contracting, you are showing wisdom in doing some research first.  I will add that there are books and articles out there, none of which I can recall at the moment, that specifically address contractor concerns.  Mostly the folks in this thread have already recapitulated the high points, though.

I wouldn't overthink the details of how the other guy will react.  I've done a fair bit of consulting, both successful and unsuccessful contracts.  I've learned that you need to make yourself comfortable with the terms of satisfaction.

How do you know when you've done the job right?  Forget the money - you can charge almost anything, down to telling the guy, "You decide at the end how much I was worth."  Focus on the job - what do you need to accomplish, and by when?

If you cannot succeed at that, the money will either not come to you, or will flow from you to the client.

If you do succeed, the money will flood to you.

So insist on complete disclosure of absofuckinglutely everything you need to know about the task, first (well, after signing an NDA).  Spend the time up front, for free, to understand exactly what "done" will look like.  Don't take the job unless you can do that.  By when they want it.

You may not know how to do it yet.  That's fine.  You just need to know what knowledge you will need.  That is, you need to know what questions to ask, not necessarily their answers at this stage.  But you know how you learn, and depending on the scope of WHAT THE PROJECT NEEDS, about how hard it will be to learn it.  Try not to learn too much for any one project - you should have a pretty good grasp of 75-80% of the technical matters to start.  More is good, but any decent programmer can fill in 25% without having to agonize over, "Should I charge for learning?"

OF COURSE YOU SHOULD CHARGE FOR LEARNING!

Read the passage in /The Bonfire of the Vanities/ where the law partner explains how you bill your client for the minute you thought of them just before you teed off on that fourth hole with the dogleg.

Doesn't matter.  All that matters is that you complete the project on time in a way that your client likes.

So you'd better have a pretty clear idea of what they like before you bid.

-- 
Lew

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#10375

Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> wrote in
news:827532.751.1322632952528.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prgi20: 

> Novice wrote:
>> Touche! I certainly deserve that for this mistake. 
> 
> You have an excellent attitude and you will succeed brilliantly in
> software development. 
> 
> As for contracting, you are showing wisdom in doing some research
> first.  I will add that there are books and articles out there, none
> of which I can recall at the moment, that specifically address
> contractor concerns.  Mostly the folks in this thread have already
> recapitulated the high points, though. 
> 
> I wouldn't overthink the details of how the other guy will react. 
> I've done a fair bit of consulting, both successful and unsuccessful
> contracts.  I've learned that you need to make yourself comfortable
> with the terms of satisfaction. 
> 
> How do you know when you've done the job right?  Forget the money -
> you can charge almost anything, down to telling the guy, "You decide
> at the end how much I was worth."  Focus on the job - what do you need
> to accomplish, and by when? 
> 
> If you cannot succeed at that, the money will either not come to you,
> or will flow from you to the client. 
> 
> If you do succeed, the money will flood to you.
> 
> So insist on complete disclosure of absofuckinglutely everything you
> need to know about the task, first (well, after signing an NDA). 
> Spend the time up front, for free, to understand exactly what "done"
> will look like.  Don't take the job unless you can do that.  By when
> they want it. 
> 
> You may not know how to do it yet.  That's fine.  You just need to
> know what knowledge you will need.  That is, you need to know what
> questions to ask, not necessarily their answers at this stage.  But
> you know how you learn, and depending on the scope of WHAT THE PROJECT
> NEEDS, about how hard it will be to learn it.  Try not to learn too
> much for any one project - you should have a pretty good grasp of
> 75-80% of the technical matters to start.  More is good, but any
> decent programmer can fill in 25% without having to agonize over,
> "Should I charge for learning?" 
> 
> OF COURSE YOU SHOULD CHARGE FOR LEARNING!
> 
> Read the passage in /The Bonfire of the Vanities/ where the law
> partner explains how you bill your client for the minute you thought
> of them just before you teed off on that fourth hole with the dogleg. 
> 
> Doesn't matter.  All that matters is that you complete the project on
> time in a way that your client likes. 
> 
> So you'd better have a pretty clear idea of what they like before you
> bid. 
> 
I will take your advice to heart, Lew! I would really love to do this 
project and have it be a big success but I really do need to understand 
exactly what done is, as you put it, so that I am certain I can do it. If 
I can't do it, it's better to take this as a learning experience for what 
to do differently the next time than to take the project regardles - 
assuming it's offered - and make a mess of it. 


-- 
Novice

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#10298

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:41:11 +0000 (UTC), Novice <novice@example..com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>In a nutshell, if I tell him $10/hr, I think I'll be signalling that I'm 
>so awful that that's the best I think I can get. If I tell him $100/hr, I 

to play fair, you need to bid a fixed price for the whole project.
There is no reason he should be paying for your education.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
For me, the appeal of computer progamming is that
even though I am quite a klutz,
I can still produce something, in a sense
perfect, because the computer gives me as many
chances as I please to get it right.
 

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#10300

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:03:51 -0800, Roedy Green
<see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:41:11 +0000 (UTC), Novice <novice@example..com>
>wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>>In a nutshell, if I tell him $10/hr, I think I'll be signalling that I'm 
>>so awful that that's the best I think I can get. If I tell him $100/hr, I 
>
>to play fair, you need to bid a fixed price for the whole project.
>There is no reason he should be paying for your education.

     Yes, there is.  If a client asks for something unusual, he should
pay for all time involved.  Obviously, there can be a fine line here.
I have, on occasion, charged less for a learning opportunity, but I
always make the point that I have a lot of skill and experience, and
that it is of benefit even when I am working in an area that I am not
expert in.

     Think of it this way.  You have to learn what a client wants and
needs.  You charge for that, right?  So you already are charging for
learning time.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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