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Re: teaching Java and formal grammars

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Stefan Ram wrote:
> Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> writes:
>> That means there are teenagers trying to learn Java who have no idea
>> what a formal grammar is, or how it works.
> 
>   In my first Java programming classes for a general audience at
>   an evening school for adults, I started out to teach EBNF first.
>   But now I have given up on this, because it confused the people.
>   Sometimes, EBNF productions were confused with Java source code
>   and were written into the program! But even if this would not
>   happen, it costs time to teach EBNF, which is then lacking for
>   Java in those relatively short-time classes. If I would have to
>   give classes with more than 100 hours, I might start to teach
>   EBNF first. But my classes usually have about 18 hours for the
>   beginner class (plus about 12 - 18 hours for an optional 
>   continuation class, the »advanced course«).
> 

I am not sure hours of instruction are the important thing for
programming language learning. How much time are the students able and
willing to spend outside class?

I wonder whether the Java and EBNF could be taught in parallel without
causing confusion. For example, teach enough Java to write a very simple
application, then show a simplified extract of the Java grammar that is
sufficient to derive the applications the students now know how to write.

Patricia

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Arrays in java "mmc.java" <michael.p.mulligan@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 07:54 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-09 11:30 -0400
    Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-09 15:03 -0700
      Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-09 15:16 -0700
        Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 16:14 -0700
          Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-09 21:43 -0700
            Re: Arrays in java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-09 23:47 -0700
          Re: Arrays in java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-11 15:32 -0700
            Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-11 16:21 -0700
              Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-11 17:08 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-11 17:20 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-11 22:09 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-12 11:31 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-13 09:07 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-13 13:00 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-15 00:54 -0500
                Re: Arrays in java Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-07-16 15:59 -0400
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-16 23:44 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-17 08:01 +0000
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 03:04 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 13:02 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 22:03 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-17 22:10 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-18 05:12 +0000
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 22:39 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-18 21:24 +0000
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-19 06:48 -0700
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-19 10:27 -0400
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-19 10:55 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-13 08:28 -0500
            Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-11 18:33 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-09 09:17 -0700
    Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 12:56 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-07-09 12:45 -0400
  Re: Arrays in java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-09 11:03 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Arun GOPI <arun041@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 02:53 -0700

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