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Re: teaching Java and formal grammars

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On 19 Jul 2012 14:07:54 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:

>Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> writes:
>>I am not sure hours of instruction are the important thing for
>>programming language learning. How much time are the students able and
>>willing to spend outside class?
>
>  No time. The classes are visited by employees, pupils, and
>  students, who need or want to use the rest of their time
>  for their job/life, school, or university. When I tried to
>  give homework, it was never done.

     They have time.  They just choose to spend it otherwise.  Not
spending enough time with programming means one does not become
competent.  While acknowledging that it is their choice, I would make
that clear in class.

>>I wonder whether the Java and EBNF could be taught in parallel without
>>causing confusion. For example, teach enough Java to write a very simple
>>application, then show a simplified extract of the Java grammar that is
>>sufficient to derive the applications the students now know how to write.
>
>  Yes, I tried this. From the beginning I only showed a
>  simplified grammar restricted to the parts that are actually
>  used in class, but even that was too hard. But maybe I'll
>  try »railroad diagrams« as used in Pascal. It should make
>  clear that this is not intended to become a part of Java
>  source code.
>
>  For example, the curly braces: Some of my students don't
>  even know the German name of the character »{« when they
>  come into my class. It seems they never encountered this
>  symbol before in their life. Suddenly they see it in both
>  Java and EBNF with two totally different meanings. That
>  seems to be too much.

     You are trying to teach the functionally illiterate how to
program?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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Thread

Arrays in java "mmc.java" <michael.p.mulligan@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 07:54 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-09 11:30 -0400
    Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-09 15:03 -0700
      Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-09 15:16 -0700
        Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 16:14 -0700
          Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-09 21:43 -0700
            Re: Arrays in java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-09 23:47 -0700
          Re: Arrays in java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-11 15:32 -0700
            Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-11 16:21 -0700
              Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-11 17:08 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-11 17:20 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-11 22:09 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-12 11:31 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-13 09:07 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-13 13:00 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-15 00:54 -0500
                Re: Arrays in java Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-07-16 15:59 -0400
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-16 23:44 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-17 08:01 +0000
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 03:04 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 13:02 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 22:03 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-17 22:10 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-18 05:12 +0000
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 22:39 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-18 21:24 +0000
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-19 06:48 -0700
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-19 10:27 -0400
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-19 10:55 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-13 08:28 -0500
            Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-11 18:33 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-09 09:17 -0700
    Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 12:56 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-07-09 12:45 -0400
  Re: Arrays in java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-09 11:03 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Arun GOPI <arun041@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 02:53 -0700

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