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Re: Arrays in java

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Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>  Lew wrote:
> >Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> >...
> >>      I have not read the JLS, but ...
> 
>      Ad hommuch?
> 
>      Patricia Shanahan states that she has read the JLS several times
> and that she agrees with me.  What cheap shot are you going to use
> against her?
> 
>      Language standards have uses, but one of them is not learning the
> language from the start.

I don't advocate reading the JLS in order to learn the language from the 
start. If you think that's what I'm saying, read it again.

I am advocating not ignoring the JLS, and using it as a reference and an 
adjunct to learning the language, so that by the time you consider 
yourself competent in Java there is a reality to that assessment.

Let me repeat this to avoid misunderstanding:

I do not advocate using the JLS (by itself) to learn Java.

I advocate using the JLS to know what is really real about Java

I excoriate the advice to avoid the JLS. I didn't hear Patricia say 
not to study the JLS. I did hear others say that.

It is not an ad hominem attack to point out that you are judging 
the JLS without having even made the attempt to read it. That is 
a legitimate consideration when considering whether your opinion 
about the JLS should carry weight. It is nice that you know the 
term ad hominem; now you need to apply it correctly.

Patricia actually has read the JLS, so of course that criticism 
cannot apply as it does to you, Gene.

I also never said that reading the JLS is easy. I am saying that 
it is necessary.

I also claim that actively discouraging people from reading the 
JLS, most particularly if you yourself have never made the effort,
is advocacy for laziness and incompetence.

Secondary materials can tell you what they think the JLS means, 
but you have to watch your sources. I now know, for example, that 
any opinion Gene has about what is or is not so about Java is 
suspect, because he has not read it. He depends entirely on 
indirect sources. If his sources are the likes of Gilead Bracha, 
James Gosling, Brian Goetz and Josh Bloch then he might have 
very good knowledge, but I cannot be sure of that. His resistance 
to the JLS is a telling point against trusting his advice.

Patricia has demonstrated again and again that she knows 
Java better than most people, and that she bases that knowledge 
in part on studying the JLS. 

So, Gene, here's to your straw-man arguments:

- You refuted the proposition that one should use the JLS to 
   learn Java. Congratulations. No one said you should.

- You refuted the proposition that the JLS is an easy read. 
   Congratulations. No one said that it is.

Here are the points not refuted and still standing:

- I claimed that the JLS is an essential tool to learning Java, 
   along with recommending other useful sources. No one 
   has even said that it isn't, much less established that it isn't.

- I claimed that it doesn't take special intelligence to 
   study the JLS, only diligence and continued study. No one 
   has tested that proposition either.

- I claimed that actively discouraging newbies (or anyone 
   else) from studying the JLS is a disservice to their learning 
   and professional progress.  No one has addressed this point.

I don't understand why anyone sane or helpful would attempt 
to dissuade Java programmers from studying the JLS, or worse 
yet, be proud that they themselves have not. 

No wonder there are so many poor programmers in the business.

-- 
Lew

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Thread

Arrays in java "mmc.java" <michael.p.mulligan@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 07:54 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-09 11:30 -0400
    Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-09 15:03 -0700
      Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-09 15:16 -0700
        Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 16:14 -0700
          Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-09 21:43 -0700
            Re: Arrays in java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-09 23:47 -0700
          Re: Arrays in java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-11 15:32 -0700
            Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-11 16:21 -0700
              Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-11 17:08 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-11 17:20 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-11 22:09 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-12 11:31 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-13 09:07 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-13 13:00 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-15 00:54 -0500
                Re: Arrays in java Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2012-07-16 15:59 -0400
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-16 23:44 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-17 08:01 +0000
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 03:04 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 13:02 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 22:03 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-07-17 22:10 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-18 05:12 +0000
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-17 22:39 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-07-18 21:24 +0000
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-19 06:48 -0700
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-19 10:27 -0400
                Re: teaching Java and formal grammars Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-07-19 10:55 -0700
                Re: Arrays in java Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-07-13 08:28 -0500
            Re: Arrays in java Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-07-11 18:33 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java markspace <-@.> - 2012-07-09 09:17 -0700
    Re: Arrays in java Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 12:56 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-07-09 12:45 -0400
  Re: Arrays in java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-07-09 11:03 -0700
  Re: Arrays in java Arun GOPI <arun041@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 02:53 -0700

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