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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #25441

Re: LOCALS| and {:

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: LOCALS| and {:
Date 2013-08-28 03:52 +0200
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <kvjl48$6ga$1@online.de> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <kfSdnen8E8Sp84fPnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@supernews.com> <kvdsr7$pum$1@online.de> <poadnb5zNv0JkobPnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@supernews.com> <kvg7b5$clb$1@online.de> <D42dnePLuIvbRIHPnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@supernews.com>

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Andrew Haley wrote:

> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Oh, please, forget about this concept of long tool chains.  The
>> languages that have been recently made are much more interactive,
>> and thus Forth-like in nature.  Just embed the necessary information
>> about how to call a function into the shared library in a way that
>> is easy to parse.
> 
> So why bother with C?  You're fighting C's essential nature.  It seems
> that C is everything you don't want, so rather than use something else
> that does what you want, you want to change C.

The problem I have with this approach is that C is everywhere, and I 
absolutely have to interface with C (and, on Android, even Java), because 
all system libraries are written in C (except on Android, where it is a mix 
of C, C++, and Java; which is actually easier than just C after you got over 
the initial hurdle that you now need another interface to another language, 
because Java is so much better to interface with).

If you want to write system libraries, please use a language which makes 
sense for writing system libraries.  Apparently, C isn't making sense (if 
you don't see C as the appropriate language to write applications, which is 
now common sense), so it needs changing.  Best in a way that doesn't break 
code.

You have to remember: If you write a system library, you don't write for 
yourself.  It's "nine times the effort", as Fred Brooks argues.  Some of 
that effort needs to go into the compiler and the binary format, and Java is 
pretty well designed in this aspect.

If you think that the mission of C is just being another language for lone 
wolf programming, then you are missing the point of C.  That's what C was 
designed for: systems and system libraries (though with a 1970 mindest).  
The language to write the fastest benchmarks in is called Fortran, and the 
language for lone wolf programming is called Forth.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-16 11:59 +0100
  Re: LOCALS| and {: "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-16 12:31 +0100
  Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-16 13:31 +0000
  Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-16 21:50 +0200
  Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-17 08:51 +0000
    Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-18 20:10 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-08-18 23:32 +0200
      Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-18 15:47 -0700
        Re: LOCALS| and {: "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-19 15:10 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 09:46 +0000
        Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-22 20:15 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 07:17 -0500
        Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 14:18 +0000
          Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 10:25 -0500
            Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 15:39 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 11:26 -0500
            Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-20 11:25 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-20 10:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-21 14:38 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 11:48 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-21 16:50 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 12:18 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-22 12:33 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-22 15:26 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 12:25 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-23 02:24 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 03:12 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-24 01:22 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 02:56 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 01:49 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 03:52 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 08:10 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:00 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:46 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 03:01 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-24 03:24 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 12:51 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-25 11:44 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-30 02:42 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 12:24 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-23 11:50 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 08:13 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-23 13:55 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-24 10:36 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 13:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-24 22:44 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-25 04:29 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-25 20:15 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-25 15:51 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-25 23:27 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-26 03:19 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-26 20:38 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-27 11:52 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-28 03:52 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-28 11:55 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-26 11:36 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-21 10:36 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-21 17:22 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 12:34 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-21 23:05 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 03:15 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-22 14:49 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-23 02:07 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-26 20:51 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-27 15:55 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-27 10:22 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-27 17:33 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-27 23:02 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-27 22:02 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-27 11:08 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-27 21:16 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-30 02:56 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 20:10 +0000
          Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 01:49 +0000
            Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-20 07:14 +0000
        Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-21 10:28 +0100
    Re: LOCALS| and {: "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-08-18 10:04 -1000
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-19 20:08 +0100
        Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 01:54 +0000
    Re: LOCALS| and {: Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-20 02:19 -0700
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-20 04:37 -0500
  Re: LOCALS| and {: Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-08-17 13:58 +0200
  Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-17 18:49 -0700
  Re: LOCALS| and {: "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-08-23 17:37 +1000

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