Re: LOCALS| and {:

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: LOCALS\| and {:
Date	2013-08-23 02:07 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<kv6943$925$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <5214f61c.572157254@news.demon.co.uk> <75ydndkcmt6jZ4nPnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@supernews.com> <0a26ce3f-6f5e-45bd-959d-77c9da890583@googlegroups.com> <irydnY0FlLQMVYjPnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@supernews.com> <e6317f5d-c2ea-47d5-befa-04928f62a723@googlegroups.com>

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hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote:
> Also, why didn't the ANS-Forth committee just provide novice-level support
> code like { and MACRO: and FIELD, themselves???

Because the ANS Forth committee is no more; instead of revising the standard 
under ANS rules, it disbanded, and the Forth200x commitee took over.  There 
is a very small personal overlap between ANS and Forth200x, as ANS was an US 
endeaver (the "A" in ANS should be a hint ;-), while Forth200x is driven by 
the European Forth community.

Forth200x has { (renamed to {:), and a structure package which does 
something similar to FIELD.  We don't have MACRO:, though.

> How is it even possible to
> write an application program without the support code provided in the
> novice package?

The most dearly needed support package I have is my string package.  I think 
it just depends on what kind of application you want to write.  Stephen Pelc 
said, most of the core part of the standard are done (though he possibly is 
about to revise that with respect to compilation semantics, IMMEDIATE and 
STATE and stuff), and we need to add some sort of libraries.

The main critics you got here was on your symtab dictonary, because you 
refused to benchmark it.

> Why should I have to write this stuff myself 15 years
> after the ANS-Forth standard came out, and (coincidentally) 15 years after
> Forth died out in the greater programming world?

ANS Forth is called Forth-94, and with my calculation, that is 19 years.  
The death of Forth was in the late 80s, IMHO mostly due to the fact that 
computers got big enough to run bloated development systems like MSVC.  
People absolutely love bloatware, and hate anything simple and elegant.  
Especially they can't think simple, they always like to throw the most 
complicated tools they have at the problem.

If you look at a typical program in a modern language like Ruby or Python, 
it's full of regexps, lists, sets, hashes, and whatnot.  Often just because 
you can, not because it is really needed.

> It is no wonder that
> essentially everybody who tries to learn Forth gives up after a few weeks
> --- none of the necessary support for application-writing is provided!

One of the big problems with Forth is that people always lament that the 
standard killed Forth.  This is that way since Forth-83, which arguable did 
the most harm to Forth, because it changed several things to the better from 
Forth-79.  People absolutely hate changes, even changes to the better.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

Thread

LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-16 11:59 +0100
  Re: LOCALS| and {: "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-16 12:31 +0100
  Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-16 13:31 +0000
  Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-16 21:50 +0200
  Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-17 08:51 +0000
    Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-18 20:10 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-08-18 23:32 +0200
      Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-18 15:47 -0700
        Re: LOCALS| and {: "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-19 15:10 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 09:46 +0000
        Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-22 20:15 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 07:17 -0500
        Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 14:18 +0000
          Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 10:25 -0500
            Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 15:39 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 11:26 -0500
            Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-20 11:25 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-20 10:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-21 14:38 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 11:48 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-21 16:50 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 12:18 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-22 12:33 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-22 15:26 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 12:25 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-23 02:24 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 03:12 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-24 01:22 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 02:56 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 01:49 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 03:52 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 08:10 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:00 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:46 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 03:01 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-24 03:24 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 12:51 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-25 11:44 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-30 02:42 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 12:24 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-23 11:50 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 08:13 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-23 13:55 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-24 10:36 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 13:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-24 22:44 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-25 04:29 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-25 20:15 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-25 15:51 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-25 23:27 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-26 03:19 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-26 20:38 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-27 11:52 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-28 03:52 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-28 11:55 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-26 11:36 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-21 10:36 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-21 17:22 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 12:34 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-21 23:05 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 03:15 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-22 14:49 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-23 02:07 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-26 20:51 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-27 15:55 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-27 10:22 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-27 17:33 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-27 23:02 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-27 22:02 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-27 11:08 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-27 21:16 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-30 02:56 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 20:10 +0000
          Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 01:49 +0000
            Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-20 07:14 +0000
        Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-21 10:28 +0100
    Re: LOCALS| and {: "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-08-18 10:04 -1000
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-19 20:08 +0100
        Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 01:54 +0000
    Re: LOCALS| and {: Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-20 02:19 -0700
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-20 04:37 -0500
  Re: LOCALS| and {: Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-08-17 13:58 +0200
  Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-17 18:49 -0700
  Re: LOCALS| and {: "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-08-23 17:37 +1000

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