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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #25390

Re: LOCALS| and {:

From Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Subject Re: LOCALS| and {:
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
References (7 earlier) <2013Aug23.135056@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <CbednaEkhcuN_YrPnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@supernews.com> <2013Aug23.155504@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <mf2dnZjBaKzLOYrPnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@supernews.com> <2013Aug24.123652@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-ID <N9OdnS6GHqVAaIXPnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink)
Date 2013-08-24 13:05 -0500

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Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> 
>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>>>>> h \ withnHeight
>>>>>>> w \ withnWidth
>>>>>>> 0 \ withnEscapement
>>>>>>> 0 \ withnOrientation
>>>>>>> 0 \ withfnWeight
>>>>>>> flag0 \ withfdwItalic
>>>>>>> flag1 \ withfdwUnderline
>>>>>>> flag2 \ withfdwStrikeOut
>>>>>>> DEFAULT_CHARSET \ withfdwCharSet
>>>>>>> OUT_TT_PRECIS \ withfdwOutputPrecision
>>>>>>> CLIP_DEFAULT \ withfdwClipPrecision
>>>>>>> ANTIALIASED_QUALITY \ withfdwQuality
>>>>>>> family \ withfdwPitchAndFamily
>>>>>>> CreateFont
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But that's not the same thing at all:
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's obviously not the same thing.  One is Smalltalk, the other is
>>>>> Forth.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> the things after \ are just comments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes.  So what?
>>>>
>>>>The point of keyword notation is to make life easier for the
>>>>programmer.  With your "solution", if you exchange two lines, or if
>>>>you miss one out, badness will result.
>>> 
>>> Yes, it's Forth.  Simplicity, not error checking.
> 
>>Sure, but in this case the process is extremely error-prone because of
>>the long list of arguments.  I wonder what the probability of getting
>>it right the first time is.
> 
> Sounds like what a believer in static type checking says about Forth.

Probably, but that doesn't make it wrong.  However, I'm not sure that
static type checking solves this problem because many of the args are
compatible with type integer.

> But my experience is that the probability of getting Forth code right
> the first time is surprisingly high (certainly higher than what I see
> when I use C or Java), and the main reason is that I know that there
> is no safety net in Forth, so I program extra careful (another reason
> is the complexity of C and Java).
> 
> For this particular issue, producing a template like
> 
> \ withnHeight
> \ withnWidth
> \ withnEscapement
> \ withnOrientation
> \ withfnWeight
> \ withfdwItalic
> \ withfdwUnderline
> \ withfdwStrikeOut
> \ withfdwCharSet
> \ withfdwOutputPrecision
> \ withfdwClipPrecision
> \ withfdwQuality
> \ withfdwPitchAndFamily
> CreateFont
> 
> should help keeping the error rate low.

It'll help.  But please remember where we came in: the suggestion was
that local variables help with Windows calls with lots of arguments.
I don't believe that locals really help at all: what's needed is named
arguments.  And this can be done simply and easily by passing a struct
that is filled in with the named arguments.  No language extension
required, just a better interface design.

The same is true of Forth - Forth calls as well.  A dozen args on the
stack is a sure sign that the interface design is messed up.

Andrew.

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LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-16 11:59 +0100
  Re: LOCALS| and {: "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-16 12:31 +0100
  Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-16 13:31 +0000
  Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-16 21:50 +0200
  Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-17 08:51 +0000
    Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-18 20:10 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-08-18 23:32 +0200
      Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-18 15:47 -0700
        Re: LOCALS| and {: "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-08-19 15:10 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 09:46 +0000
        Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-22 20:15 +0100
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 07:17 -0500
        Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 14:18 +0000
          Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 10:25 -0500
            Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-19 15:39 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-19 11:26 -0500
            Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-20 11:25 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-20 10:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-21 14:38 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 11:48 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-21 16:50 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 12:18 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-22 12:33 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-22 15:26 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 12:25 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-23 02:24 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 03:12 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-24 01:22 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 02:56 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 01:49 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 03:52 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 08:10 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:00 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:46 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 03:01 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-24 03:24 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 12:51 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-25 11:44 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-30 02:42 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 12:24 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-23 11:50 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 08:13 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-23 13:55 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-23 13:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-24 10:36 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-24 13:05 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-24 22:44 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-25 04:29 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-25 20:15 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-25 15:51 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-25 23:27 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-26 03:19 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-26 20:38 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-27 11:52 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-28 03:52 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-28 11:55 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-26 11:36 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-08-28 22:27 -0400
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-21 10:36 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-08-21 17:22 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-21 12:34 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-21 23:05 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-22 03:15 -0500
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-22 14:49 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-23 02:07 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-26 20:51 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-08-27 15:55 +0200
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-27 10:22 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-27 17:33 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-27 23:02 +0000
                Re: LOCALS| and {: mhx@iae.nl - 2013-08-27 22:02 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-27 11:08 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-27 21:16 -0700
                Re: LOCALS| and {: "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-30 02:56 +0000
              Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 20:10 +0000
          Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 01:49 +0000
            Re: LOCALS| and {: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-08-20 07:14 +0000
        Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-21 10:28 +0100
    Re: LOCALS| and {: "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-08-18 10:04 -1000
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Ian van Breda <igvb@btopenworld.com> - 2013-08-19 20:08 +0100
        Re: LOCALS| and {: albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-08-20 01:54 +0000
    Re: LOCALS| and {: Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-08-20 02:19 -0700
      Re: LOCALS| and {: Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-08-20 04:37 -0500
  Re: LOCALS| and {: Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-08-17 13:58 +0200
  Re: LOCALS| and {: hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-08-17 18:49 -0700
  Re: LOCALS| and {: "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-08-23 17:37 +1000

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