Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry
Date	2013-05-16 23:19 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kn47da$mp8$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <y9qdnfu8VYQuTQ7MnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xk3mzh3il.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <HPOdnSt7o4VMEQnMnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@supernews.com> <2013May16.160108@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <o9-dneKXC7pGzgjMnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com>

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On 5/16/2013 5:47 PM, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> On 5/16/13 4:01 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>>> I submit that the *output* of a compiler, intended to be executed by a
>>> computer, possibly following additional processing, (and, per the last
>>> few messages, not readable by humans) isn't a "programming language".
>> ...
>>> If you're programming in Forth, sure. If you're programming in C and
>>> invoking various tools to generate your machine code, calling your
>>> intermediate step "Forth" is inappropriate.
>>
>> By that argument, calling the output of e.g., prims2x/vmgen (and
>> Cfront and a lot of other compilers that generate code that is then
>> further processed by a C compiler) "C" would be inappropriate.
>>
>> Most people, though, say that a compiler produces code in a
>> programming language L if a compiler for L is used to process the
>> output, and this is the first time that I have seen anyone claim that
>> that is inappropriate.
>
> I'm not talking about code generators that produce C code, I'm
> responding to the following, from Rod and Paul higher in this thread:
>
>  >> Eh? C's syntax is already gone by the time one is dealing with
>  >> the LLVM retargeting process. The C front end produces a
>  >> machine-independent assembler-like intermediate
>  >> representation (IR). The back end then translates the IR to the
>  >> actual instructions of the target machine. In the case of a
>  >> stack machine, these map very directly to Forth words. C to
>  >> Forth is comparatively trivial if you're willing to make free
>  >> use of locals.
>  >
>  > Well, they map very directly to stack operations, some of which
>  > are also Forth words. But, that subset of Forth is not Forth
>  > either...
>
> I don't think its practical for either the intermediate representation
> (which is theoretically machine-independent) or the final executable
> code to be called "Forth". Some of the actual machine instructions of a
> misc processor may be equivalent to a few Forth primitives, but that's
> not the same as saying it's Forth in the sense of a programming language.

You know, this all depends on the instruction set of the CPU.  We all 
know the instruction set of Chuck's MISC chips are not properly Forth. 
But I believe at some point in all this the CPU being discussed was 
supposed to implement what would be literally Forth words.  I expect it 
would not be many of them.  So the instructions generated by a C 
compiler would not look much like human designed code, in particular it 
would have rather long run-on code segments.

-- 

Rick

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offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-05-03 11:17 -0700
  Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-03 16:54 -0400
    Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-05-03 14:30 -0700
      Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 16:03 -0400
  Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-05-03 23:24 -0700
    Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 16:24 -0400
      Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "visualforth@rocketmail.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 15:01 -0700
      Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-04 15:50 -0700
        Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-04 13:45 -1000
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry babruehl@gmail.com - 2013-05-04 16:55 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-04 15:08 -1000
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-04 21:52 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-05 18:51 -0400
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 18:50 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-05 20:13 -0400
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-05 09:38 +0000
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 17:00 -0400
        Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "visualforth@rocketmail.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 16:50 -0700
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-05 13:02 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-05-05 23:14 +0200
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 13:44 -1000
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 21:07 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 19:35 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 23:17 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 23:39 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-05-06 01:21 -0700
      Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 00:08 -0700
        Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-04 21:58 -1000
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 06:56 -0700
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-05 18:42 -0400
        Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 17:11 -0400
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-05 18:41 -0400
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-05 15:42 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 20:10 -0700
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-07 18:53 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 20:59 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 20:24 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-09 20:16 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 02:14 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-07 20:46 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-09 20:12 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-11 06:23 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 11:44 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-11 13:27 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 21:05 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-11 18:27 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-15 05:24 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-15 10:03 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-15 07:30 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-15 10:39 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-15 08:15 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-15 22:56 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-15 21:37 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-16 14:01 +0000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-16 11:47 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-16 23:19 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-16 17:38 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-17 13:35 +0000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-17 08:14 -1000
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 19:56 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 13:34 -0400
    Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 23:50 -0700
  Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-04 03:48 -0500
    Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-04 19:31 +0200
      Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-04 11:05 -0700
      Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-04 13:46 -0500
        Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 16:31 -0400
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-04 15:58 -0500
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 17:04 -0400
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-04 17:23 -0500
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 10:28 -0400
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-05 01:41 +0200
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-05 04:16 -0500
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-05 12:56 -0700
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-06 05:19 -0500
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 04:01 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-06 09:48 -0500
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 11:08 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-06 17:21 -0500
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 22:58 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 21:04 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-08 03:02 -0500
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-09 20:08 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-10 05:03 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 11:21 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-11 15:53 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 21:07 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 08:29 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-09 20:08 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 11:39 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-11 15:56 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 21:14 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-12 12:29 +0000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-12 08:33 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-05-15 05:23 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-15 07:43 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-15 14:11 -0500
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-15 11:41 -1000
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-16 09:35 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-16 13:50 -0400
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-19 19:34 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-05-19 23:41 -0700
                Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry dirk.bruehl@usa.net - 2013-05-17 08:53 -0700
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 11:06 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-05 18:56 -0700
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 03:56 -0700
            Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-05-06 00:31 -0700
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 00:54 -0700
              Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 22:06 -1000
        Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-05 02:43 -0700
          Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-05 19:06 -0700
  Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-04 21:55 -0700
  Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 07:41 -0400
  Re: offtopic - Critical of the Computer Industry Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-05-05 21:02 -0700

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