Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals.

Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Date	2013-05-01 09:54 -0700
References	<cb5abbb0-fd29-4f28-836b-e7928a5afa9d@fz1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID	<86c9bedc-e290-413c-b129-3c8c3bf9aef0@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals.
From	the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com>

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On Monday, April 29, 2013 2:31:57 AM UTC-7, Steve wrote:
> I would like to put some ideas out to increase minimal instruction set
> 
> computer processors usefulness, and open them for discussion.  I am
> 
> doing my own commercial projects, but can see a few things that can
> 
> help the development community in this segment.  If anybody would like
> 
> these projects please come, or know people that might be interested
> 
> please let them know.
> 
> 
> 
> The ideas open up new areas of product development, and are largely
> 
> sequential, meant to be developed one after the other, one step at a
> 
> time.
> 
> 
> 
> The ideas below also would work best with a 32 bit version of misc,
> 
> but are still workable if at least a single 18 bit+ address space
> 
> available for control programs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A simpler OS:
> 
> ------------------
> 
> 
> 
> I have mentioned an idea, for a simple open OS in the $1 (cost)
> 
> computer thread, to drive community development, that simply allows
> 
> programs to access open standards like Open GL, Open Media, Open CL
> 
> etc.  The importance of this is revealed below.  But this opens up
> 
> more possibilities, of using the full standard function set of Java,
> 
> Android, Linux or Windows.   As Java, Android and Linux are open
> 
> standards, it allows the free creation of Misc devices using these on
> 
> cheap Arm or other processors to provide the extra functionality
> 
> without transferring the open API's to Misc code.   The system can be
> 
> based around misc, with a simple processor add on to run the Open
> 
> API's and other OS, or a conventional system, with a misc processor
> 
> add on.   Of course, the current Misc processor design is awkward for
> 
> this, but the 32 bit design should before suitable.
> 
> 
> 
> The OS would have little more functionality past this, to run programs
> 
> across the processors, and main control program, to communicate to the
> 
> API's.  Even if the API'S are misc based, or refer to Misc side
> 
> hardware, open drivers behind the API's can hide that.  The OS is
> 
> basically a simple firmware control and routing layer with drivers.
> 
> In effect, Misc programs remain simple and control on chip resources
> 
> in a similar fashion, but with some extra features to take advantage
> 
> of.  Anybody can expand this with functionality if they like.  It
> 
> might be doable in 256-512 words including data space.  With a large
> 
> space for control programs, both the misc array and ports, and the
> 
> API's, can be accessed and used for processing.  It is simple and
> 
> takes away one layer of hassle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open interface drivers and hardware interface circuits for OS or
> 
> custom:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> For development on the simple OS above, or for custom hardware without
> 
> the OS: USB, IR, Ethernet, flash cards and memory, Bluetooth, wifi,
> 
> Sata,  PCIe and Thunderbolt, audio, microphone, display, camera.  I
> 
> know that GA will have code for half of these already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Co-processing ability:
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> The importance of this coprocessing ability mentioned above is covered
> 
> below:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember an article with a Nvidia manager on their Tegra chip
> 
> design.  Unfortunately after hours of searching I can't find it.  But
> 
> basically it was telling how Nvidia was starting to tap out their chip
> 
> process's ability to reduce power consumption due to leakage.   This
> 
> means that even though decreased process sizes will increase speed, it
> 
> will also increase power consumption and heat envelope.  The problem
> 
> in embedded mobile equipment is that they already need more processing
> 
> and battery performance, and are dealing with too much heat at the top
> 
> end.  Interestingly, the article points to Nvidia using a asynchronous
> 
> like processing scheme to only turn on and off processing elements as
> 
> they use them, so only some processors are used at any one time
> 
> otherwise the chip would fuse from the heat.   The only solution is
> 
> advancement in processes or chip architecture.
> 
> 
> 
> Misc is a viable architectural solution to advance processing ability
> 
> and power usage, due to its excellently low transistor count
> 
> increasing processing densities.  With minor adjustments, additional
> 
> processing segments can be accommodated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Co-processing continued.  Processor replacements:
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> This is the interesting thing I mentioned in the new Misc forum
> 
> thread.  That like back in the 80's and 90's high and low powered
> 
> versions of processors were made based on Risc designs.  With a
> 
> topping out of decreases in power consumption from chip process
> 
> shrinkage, as described above, normal processors will hit limits in
> 
> their heat envelopes to how much processing performance they can
> 
> deliver.  Misc, like the Risc architecture of old above, allows a
> 
> simpler way to emulate these architectures, but unlike them, due to
> 
> its low power nature that is yet to reach a descent process to deliver
> 
> maximum ability, it has a lead in processing density beyond what
> 
> conventional consumer processors can achieve.  This should either lead
> 
> to higher processing power versions, or simple low energy versions.
> 
> 
> 
> The Russians are already trying to emulate x86 with ARM's:
> 
> http://armservers.com/2012/10/03/here-comes-the-emulators-ee-times-article/
> 
> 
> 
> Misc is inevitably suitable to run emulation of the x86 architecture
> 
> or the Arm architecture.   In the Arm case, this could include
> 
> emulation of the Arm Eco system, or use of Arm co-processors with a
> 
> Misc asic cell version of Arm.
> 
> 
> 
> Products: x86 coprocessing card or chip on Android and Apple systems,
> 
> to run pc and pc Linux programs with higher efficiency.  Low end x86
> 
> compatible processor.  Low end, or high end Arm compatible chip.
> 
> 
> 
> Such processing ability allows a Misc system to run the Open API's,
> 
> Linux, Java, Android etc code directly on the Misc processor rather
> 
> than rewrite it.
> 
> 
> 
> The x86 system would be an ideal low energy embedded industrial
> 
> product.
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from the process potential of Misc, normally one would doubt the
> 
> ability to out perform an x86 processor and especially an Arm, but
> 
> there is something that enables this, the architecture of a misc array
> 
> should be adaptable to emulating complex processors in particular and
> 
> particularly in multitasking.   The Misc array can be treated as a
> 
> pipeline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OS's:
> 
> ------
> 
> 
> 
> A finale benefit would be to have Android, Java or Linux for Misc. 
> 
> Java maybe more irrelevant now, but Android and Linux are consumer and
> 
> industrial standards that have drivers for hardware as well as
> 
> functionality and a code base.   Interfacing or emulating a processor
> 
> will give you the same benefits faster, than transferring these OS`s,
> 
> but such a finale solution will perform quicker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emulating FPGA designs:
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody know if there are any fpga's out there at all that are
> 
> suitable to be emulated on Misc, to run circuits designs made for
> 
> them?  To offer misc as a design replacement for a suitable FPGA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open hardware using the projects above:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> In the $1 computer thread ($1 cost, $10+ price)  I suggested something
> 
> simple, an embedded platform that could fit in a ring.  One interface,
> 
> maybe Bluetooth/wifi/video wifi standard, maybe an IR, maybe a touch
> 
> sensor, no display, but a piezo speaker that can act as a microphone. 
> 
> Much like Java ring of old, you could also get it to id people.  It
> 
> could be based on the simple open OS above.  The consumer wireless
> 
> makes it complex otherwise a cheap simple embedded wireless interface
> 
> could be use.   Manufacturers could pick it up for free to
> 
> manufacture, and make their own exclusive versions.
> 
> 
> 
> A range of things could be made.  They could be done with the simple
> 
> OS, or without the OS on custom hardware.
> 
> 
> 
> Please note, on Green Array's pages, they are saying they will be
> 
> developing an all in one self running development system.  If they
> 
> decide to release it as a reference design, it will help develope new
> 
> designs derived from it.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/roadmap.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All these solutions require at least a large executable address space
> 
> that can be directly executed by one processor node, and preferably a
> 
> 32 bit version of misc array (though still workable on 18 bit with
> 
> direct execution space).

avoid java

oracle must die

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Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-04-29 02:31 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-30 11:47 -0400
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-30 12:05 -0400
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 07:58 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 11:35 -0400
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 09:23 -0700
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-01 19:27 +0000
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 21:50 -0700
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 17:21 -0400
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-04 07:47 -1000
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 09:44 -0700
              Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 17:34 -0400
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 22:57 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 11:49 -0400
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 09:36 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 07:50 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 08:19 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 08:19 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-07 19:09 +0000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 22:36 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 00:14 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 02:40 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 04:19 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-08 09:55 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 10:18 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-08 11:37 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 12:39 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-09 00:17 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-08 21:30 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 01:43 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 12:20 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-08 13:41 +0000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 10:51 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 09:31 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 10:41 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-15 00:59 -0400
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 22:46 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 08:20 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-30 09:40 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 08:14 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 15:37 -0700
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 23:10 -0700
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 23:52 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 09:54 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-05-01 23:04 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Update1 Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 10:06 -0700
  Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 02:36 -0700
    Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 02:37 -0700
    Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-02 11:08 +0000
      Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 08:07 -0700
      Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-05-03 15:07 -0400
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 08:38 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 13:28 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 01:37 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-03 04:03 -0500
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-03 08:19 -1000
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 13:46 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 14:47 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 02:40 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 14:20 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-05-04 10:39 +0000
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 10:35 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-04 10:48 +0000
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 01:04 -0700
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-04 22:24 -1000
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-05 09:52 +0000
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 08:46 -0700
              Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 08:10 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-05 13:12 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 21:17 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 19:39 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 23:51 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 21:19 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 01:35 -0700
              Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 13:58 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 23:55 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 00:26 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 02:11 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 02:19 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 11:21 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 13:28 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 15:24 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 06:16 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 03:49 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-05-08 19:58 +0000
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 20:04 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 02:26 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 02:31 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 23:53 -0400
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 10:14 -0700

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