Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals.

Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Date	2013-05-07 13:58 -0700
References	(1 earlier) <5184e778$0$6058$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl> <015be993-aa1e-45c0-8337-f0e6346d64bb@g5g2000pbp.googlegroups.com> <P7qdnXc8NM3cihvMnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@supernews.com> <51862bcb$0$26877$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl> <aabf06df-da34-4bf0-b278-c99eb589336e@d8g2000pbe.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID	<7af66657-3285-421b-b7f1-dc3ddc09e8da@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals.
From	the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com>

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On Sunday, May 5, 2013 8:46:28 AM UTC-7, Steve wrote:
> Albert van der Horst wrote:
> 
> > In article <P7qdnXc8NM3cihvMnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@supernews.com>,
> 
> > Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:
> 
> > >On 5/4/13 10:04 PM, Steve wrote:
> 
> > >>
> 
> > >...
> 
> > >>
> 
> > >> I have to go out, but am just quickly posting to say, that these are
> 
> > >> only ment as desperate solutions, of last resort to start before you
> 
> > >> do a proper version with the support of many volunteers.  I took that
> 
> > >> conversion was sreamlined automated, so code maintenance in forth
> 
> > >> would not be an issue when it is meant to be maintained in C.  I
> 
> > >> understand certain parts will be hardware dependent and still have to
> 
> > >> hand written in forth.  As for desperation tatics, if you have no c++
> 
> > >> to forth, you have no other relatively easier options.  Please
> 
> > >> everybody chill out and take my comments as they were seriously
> 
> > >> balancely meant.  If anybody still disagrees, they can try to hand
> 
> > >> translate all the c and c++ code to forth and see how long it takes.
> 
> > >> I did suggest direct coding of smaller portions, but to hand translate
> 
> > >> everything to forth might take a life time.
> 
> > >>
> 
> > >>
> 
> > >> Thanks very much for your patience.
> 
> > >
> 
> > >You'd be surprised. Back in the 80's, we were doing a lot of work for
> 
> > >GM, related to the (then) new Saturn plant in TN. At one point, they
> 
> > >wanted to use their MAP standard protocol, but thought it would be
> 
> > >prohibitively expensive to code in Forth, because their working version
> 
> > >in C had cost >$1M. We coded it from scratch in just a couple of months.
> 
> > >Given the complexity of that protocol, I'm sure if we had had a
> 
> > >translator it would have taken at least that long just to test the
> 
> > >translated code, fixing all the bugs, etc. And our version was much
> 
> > >smaller and even faster than theirs.
> 
> > >
> 
> > >In general, if you have a working version of something, you have worked
> 
> > >out all the kinks in the spec and have a good handle on the algorithms.
> 
> > >Those are the biggest hurdles and take the most time in the original
> 
> > >development. Given Forth's interactive development nature, recoding goes
> 
> > >surprisingly quickly.
> 
> >
> 
> > That is a good realistic technique. I had to recode a program in assembler
> 
> > (not C, but it doesn't matter much). They had had some comsultants earning
> 
> > a multiple of my fee to define the specs. Those were pretty worthless,
> 
> > especially wiht respect to error situations,
> 
> > and I gave them a couple of sheets, with examples to run through their
> 
> > old software. Never looked at the assembler code. That was another
> 
> > success, it was so much faster than the old program that it was
> 
> > completely IO-bound.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm finding this difficult, we are talking hundreds of megabytes
> 
> of code, even gigabytes (I have not checked Android for size) I doubt
> 
> we could even read if it was a book case of books.  Elizabeth, Albert,
> 
> am I missing something fundamental here?
> 
> 
> 
> However, I have been thinking of solutions to this issue, because
> 
> ultimately, success gives Mr Moore plenty of money to experiment his
> 
> internal motivations, as you have said.  A major code base and
> 
> hardware eco system is a major boon.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I've said that an arm or mips code translator, or emulator, could
> 
> take a compile of an OS for such a processor and translate/emulate
> 
> that to misc.  A perfect translation requires no maintenance, all
> 
> maintenance is done in the c etc code.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) I've talked about a misc c compiler, which could compile the lot,
> 
> even a bit of intermediate c code better to emulate on misc.
> 
> 
> 
> 3) But I've heard of c language written in forth words.  Would that be
> 
> a suitable option for ease?  Is there such code?
> 
> 
> 
> What people are not taking into account is that android will run at a
> 
> few hundred mhz and even if emulation ran this slow (remember I'm
> 
> aiming at enhanced misc designs in particular) as long as you have a
> 
> foot in the door you can sell a product to somebody.  It is always
> 
> trying to make something work out.
> 
> 
> 
> So the reality is a c compiler to misc, c in forth, or arm translator/
> 
> emulator.
> 
> 
> 
> People have talked about kick starting a forth PC, I would like to see
> 
> a 32 bit misc kickstart, I however would like to one day be able to
> 
> get one with my own modifications.   GA takes custom orders, if
> 
> everybody got together they could fun it, for shares even, and on the
> 
> proviso of design release if GA ceases as it is.  Mup21 was developed
> 
> like this, and now Mr Moore has worked out how to get designs to work
> 
> the firest time, the 32 bit could be done cheaper in todays terms.  I
> 
> do not want competition, but it would be great for the community, and
> 
> we could nominate some enhancements.  I'm a believer in low cycle, low
> 
> transistor in this respect.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve.

android and iphone are terrible, be awesome to see a forth running on a chinese device with forth gui, chat, phonecalls, camera working al from forth gui

could forth do the swipe screen?

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Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-04-29 02:31 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-30 11:47 -0400
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-30 12:05 -0400
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 07:58 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 11:35 -0400
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 09:23 -0700
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-01 19:27 +0000
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 21:50 -0700
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 17:21 -0400
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-04 07:47 -1000
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 09:44 -0700
              Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 17:34 -0400
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 22:57 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 11:49 -0400
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 09:36 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 07:50 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 08:19 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 08:19 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-07 19:09 +0000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 22:36 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 00:14 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 02:40 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 04:19 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-08 09:55 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 10:18 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-08 11:37 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 12:39 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-09 00:17 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-08 21:30 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-05-19 17:00 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 01:43 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 12:20 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-08 13:41 +0000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 10:51 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 09:31 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 10:41 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-15 00:59 -0400
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 22:46 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 23:13 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-16 09:40 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-16 12:46 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-19 04:58 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-19 09:52 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-19 17:34 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-19 20:46 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-19 23:29 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-20 00:51 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-20 02:12 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-20 04:19 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-20 05:41 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-20 05:47 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-20 08:45 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-20 09:12 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-20 19:18 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-05-25 00:21 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 22:54 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 08:20 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-30 09:40 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 08:14 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 15:37 -0700
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 23:10 -0700
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 23:52 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 09:54 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-05-01 23:04 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Update1 Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 10:06 -0700
  Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 02:36 -0700
    Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 02:37 -0700
    Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-02 11:08 +0000
      Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 08:07 -0700
      Re: Update 2 Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-05-03 15:07 -0400
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 08:38 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 13:28 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-05-19 16:21 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 01:37 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-03 04:03 -0500
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-03 08:19 -1000
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 13:46 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 14:47 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 02:40 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 14:20 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-05-04 10:39 +0000
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 10:35 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-04 10:48 +0000
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 01:04 -0700
        Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-04 22:24 -1000
          Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-05 09:52 +0000
            Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 08:46 -0700
              Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 08:10 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-05 13:12 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 21:17 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 19:39 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 23:51 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-05 21:19 -1000
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 01:35 -0700
              Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 13:58 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 23:55 -0700
                Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 00:26 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 02:11 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 02:19 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 11:21 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 13:28 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 15:24 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-07 06:16 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 03:49 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-05-08 19:58 +0000
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 20:04 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 02:26 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 02:31 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 23:53 -0400
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-14 10:14 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-16 07:23 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-16 12:52 -0700
  Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-19 23:46 -0700
    Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-05-20 00:09 -0700
      Re: Misc Expansion, OS's, development and project proposals. Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-05-20 00:53 -0700

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