Re: THANK YOU

Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Date	2013-06-12 00:58 -0700
References	(1 earlier) <koqs5n$8gm$1@dont-email.me> <c0548a41-6fdc-465c-8977-9f4b52d3147d@w8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> <kp5e6a$899$1@speranza.aioe.org> <JIadnevper3X2yvMnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@supernews.com> <kp8csr$jo$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID	<5481d604-3b85-4ab4-8d93-fa15e5920951@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: THANK YOU
From	Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk>

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On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:50:25 AM UTC+1, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> 
> AFAICT, there is no indication on that page that they use Forth.
> So, it's entirely possible the company you cited might've been
> using Forth in the past, but not anymore.  If they are, it's truly
> scary to think they're using Forth for SCADA.

Why would any vendor indicate the language that was used to develop a products' code? It's simply not relevant at a commercial/product level. It's meaningless.

A quick check of Rockwell (PLC manufacturer) tell me that they don't mention anywhere that their Allen Bradley PLCs are based on C (which they are, not C++) and it further fails to mention that user ladder code written with ControlLogix compiles down to threaded code.

Ditto Omron.

I also just checked a previous employer, they don't mention that their SCADA products are developed with C++ at the server end, and C at the data aquisition end.

My current employer doesn't publicise the fact that our Subsea Electronic Modules (SEMs) are developed in C running on QNX.

Presuably because nobody cares.

I just bought a whiz-bang Samsung TV. Nowhere on the box does it say "Developed with C++!!!!!!". It doesn't even mention that it's running an embedded form of Linux, which it is!

Okay, I'm labouring the point now. I'll shut up!

Regarding Forth for SCADA, it depends which end. I would tend to agree that Forth on the server end is going to be awkward, because you need dynamic allocation/de-allocation of memory, among other things such as TCP/IP (these days) and SQL interfaces into beasts like MySQL, SQL Server or (God forbid) Oracle, and I wouldn't go to the trouble of rolling my own code for all of that. It would just be too much work. I personally would reach for Java, since it contains all the tools I would need to put together a data-gathering and storage system, which is basically what SCADA is. Others might reach for C++ which would be perfectly fine, too. It just comes down to what you're comfortable with, I guess. C++ always pissed me off and took me too long to debug difficult to catch issues such as memory leaks. I guess I just wasn't that good at it. :-/

However, on the RTU end, it would be close to perfect IMHO. On the RTU end, you very definately do NOT want anything like dynamic memory allocation or other such nonsense. You want a totally fixed, rigid memory space that does not change at all while the software is running (which could be decade without a restart if it's some remote outstation running off of a solar re-charged PSU with packet radio or meteor burst communications). Forth is great for that. And since Forth supports multi-tasking I think it would be an excellent candidate at the RTU end. I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if VFX and probably GForth support some sort of optional/loadable (probably non-standard) library that can manage memory allocation and deallocation for user applications

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THANK YOU Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2013-06-05 22:01 -0500
  Re: THANK YOU "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 19:08 -1000
    Re: THANK YOU Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-06 00:10 -0700
    Re: THANK YOU Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:01 -0700
  Re: THANK YOU stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-06 11:19 +0000
  Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:46 -0400
    Re: THANK YOU "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-06 23:28 -0400
      Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 18:07 -0400
    Re: THANK YOU Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-07 03:27 -0700
      Re: THANK YOU anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-07 11:44 +0000
        Re: THANK YOU Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-07 14:16 -0700
      Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 18:11 -0400
        Re: THANK YOU visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-08 21:37 -0700
          Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 14:42 -0400
          Re: THANK YOU Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-11 00:51 -0700
            Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-11 20:57 -0400
              Re: THANK YOU Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-11 18:12 -0700
                Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-11 23:27 -0400
              Re: THANK YOU Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-17 00:04 -0700
            Re: THANK YOU Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-12 00:22 -0700
        Re: THANK YOU Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-09 03:59 -0700
    Re: THANK YOU Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-08 19:02 -0700
      Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 14:45 -0400
      Re: THANK YOU "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-10 16:54 -0400
        Re: THANK YOU "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-10 11:33 -1000
          Re: THANK YOU "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-11 19:50 -0400
            Re: THANK YOU Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-12 00:58 -0700
              Re: THANK YOU Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-12 01:08 -0700
                Re: THANK YOU Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-12 01:16 -0700
              Re: THANK YOU "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-17 20:27 -0400
                Re: THANK YOU Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-17 14:29 -1000
        Re: THANK YOU Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-11 17:25 -0700
          Re: THANK YOU "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-17 21:19 -0400
            Re: THANK YOU "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-18 02:05 +0000
              Re: THANK YOU Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-17 21:27 -0700
                Re: OT was, [Re: THANK YOU] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-18 21:34 -0400
            OT Re: THANK YOU albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-18 14:53 +0000
      Re: THANK YOU Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 14:11 -0700
        Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 19:08 -0400
          Re: THANK YOU <fred@example.com> - 2013-06-11 13:02 +0100
            Re: THANK YOU albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-11 12:49 +0000
      Re: THANK YOU Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-11 00:44 -0700
        Re: THANK YOU Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-11 18:08 -0700
          Re: THANK YOU Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-12 01:14 -0700
            Re: THANK YOU "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-12 08:03 -1000
            Re: THANK YOU Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-12 18:09 -0700
              Re: THANK YOU albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-13 10:45 +0000
                Re: THANK YOU Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-13 03:53 -0700
                Re: THANK YOU "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-13 07:37 -1000
                Re: THANK YOU Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-13 19:01 -0700
                Re: THANK YOU "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-17 20:12 -0400
              Re: THANK YOU rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:45 -0400
              Re: THANK YOU "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-17 20:25 -0400
  Re: THANK YOU Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:49 -0700
  Re: THANK YOU Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-07 14:19 -0700

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