Re: Debian and Non-Free Services

From	Andy Simpkins <rattusrattus@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
Date	2019-09-13 13:00 +0200
Message-ID	<yFRsZ-36N-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<yFBey-A1-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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On 12/09/2019 18:30, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Subject: Free Software Needs Free Tools
> 
>    No Debian contributor should be expected or encouraged, when working
>    to improve Debian, to use non-free tools.  I don't believe that anyone within Debian will have a problem with this 
statement.


>    This includes proprietary web services.  
Clearly no issue here either - web services are an instance of a 
software application/tool so the above statement holds.


>    We will ensure this, insofar as it is within Debian's
>    collective control."Ensure" is perhaps the wrong word here.  I submit that "Encourage" may 
be a better choice.
Just because you, and I, believe that "No Debian contributor should be 
expected or encouraged... ...to use any non-free tools" does not mean 
that we should *prevent* them from doing so.  The decision to do so 
should vest solely with the contributor.  *providing* that their doing 
so does not force other contributors to use non-free tools.
It would however, IMO, be acceptable to enforce this for Debian's own 
tools, and infrastructure.  Just not for packages where Debian is not 
the 'root upstream'.


> 
>    For example, Vcs-Git fields in source packages must not refer to
>    proprietary git code management systems.  Non-Debian services are
>    acceptable here so long as they are principally Free Software.
Your example strikes of forcing people to use an entirely free system 
for their development process.  If we are to encourage and support 
freedom that means that we must also accept that other people have the 
freedom to use proprietary git code management systems.
Again if this example is bound within the relm of Debian services, tools 
and root packages then IMO this would be acceptable.


>    We encourage all our upstreams to use Free/Libre tools.
Again I can't see anyone within Debian having a problem with this 
statement.


> 
>    We recognise that metadata in Debian which describes the behaviour
>    of those outside our community, for example fields which refer to
>    upstream source management systems, may (in order to be accurate)
>    still need to refer to proprietary systems.
That is what I am trying to say, and this statement would appear to be 
at odds with your example above.

I guess what I am trying to say is for upstream packages distributed 
within Debian (the vast majority) we should ensure that contributors to 
these packages are able to contribute using exclusively free tools and 
software.  This does not prohibit the upstream from using proprietary 
services, only that their must be a method to contribute without being 
forced to use those services.

Where the Debian project *is* the upstream then of cause we should eat 
our own dog food and use entirely FLOSS tools.

/Andy

Thread

Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-09-12 19:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2019-09-12 20:00 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <preining@logic.at> - 2019-09-13 01:30 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-09-16 19:10 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-10-04 17:10 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-09-12 22:30 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 00:50 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2019-09-13 08:20 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 20:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-12 22:50 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Yao Wei <mwei@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 01:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 20:20 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Yao Wei (魏銘廷)" <mwei@debian.org> - 2019-09-15 23:00 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-16 15:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-09-13 02:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 04:30 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 18:00 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-10-04 18:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-10-04 18:30 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-10-05 01:20 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-10-09 16:20 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-10-10 00:20 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-10-04 20:40 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2019-10-04 21:20 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2019-10-06 08:50 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-10-06 15:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Jose-Luis Rivas <ghostbar@debian.org> - 2019-10-07 05:30 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Michael Lustfield <michael@lustfield.net> - 2019-10-08 10:10 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Xavier" <yadd@debian.org> - 2019-10-08 13:10 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2019-10-08 17:00 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2019-10-09 00:40 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ondrej Novy <novy@ondrej.org> - 2019-10-09 12:40 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-10-09 16:20 +0200
        Re: I think We're Done: Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-10-09 17:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 09:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Andy Simpkins <rattusrattus@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 13:00 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Dmitry Eremin-Solenikov <dbaryshkov@gmail.com> - 2019-09-13 13:10 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> - 2019-09-13 15:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 17:00 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-09-13 17:40 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-09-13 18:00 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-09-16 19:00 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-09-13 13:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-09-13 19:50 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bart Martens <bartm@debian.org> - 2019-09-15 20:10 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2019-09-16 23:10 +0200

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