Re: Debian and Non-Free Services

From	"Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
Date	2019-09-13 00:50 +0200
Message-ID	<yFG4x-3TD-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<yFDT4-2rf-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 07:49:26PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:
> >   Subject: Free Software Needs Free Tools
> >
> >   No Debian contributor should be expected or encouraged, when working
> >   to improve Debian, to use non-free tools.
> 
> Does this include:
> 
>  - non-free firmware on Debian hardware,
>  - non-free software for interacting with hardware,
>  - non-free backup systems?

As far as I'm concerned, yes. But note that the proposal is not to say "our
users must not be allowed to use github". It's "our developers must not be
allowed to force contributors to use github".

I think that is very reasonable, at least for tools (including services) where
free alternatives are available.

> AFAIK Debian uses all of these and you are probably expected to deal
> with them when contributing to relevant parts in Debian.

You may be correct. In that case, this GR, if passed, declares that we want to
change that. Is that controversial?

> >   This includes proprietary
> >   web services.  We will ensure this, insofar as it is within Debian's
> >   collective control.
> 
> Does this include use of proprietary CDN networks, DNS services, cloud
> services (such as VMs or storage) or social network services (Twitter)?
> Again, you probably cannot avoid them when contributing to relevant
> parts of the project.

Yes, it should mean that. Again, it doesn't mean people are not allowed to use
them. It means that people who don't want to use them can still contribute to
Debian. So for example, it would not be allowed to ignore the bts and only
accept bug reports through Twitter. 

> >   For example, Vcs-Git fields in source packages must not refer to
> >   proprietary git code management systems.  Non-Debian services are
> >   acceptable here so long as they are principally Free Software.
> 
> That would just lead to packages using these to no longer including the
> Vcs-* fields...  There are some valid reasons to host packages on
> services such as GitLab or GitHub such as when they are hosted there as
> part of the upstream project and/or for better cooperation with
> upstream.
> 
> I would not like to make cooperation with upstream more complicated.

I agree with that. However, I'm not sure if it would make it harder. How does
this cooperation work, where you need your packaging to be on the same host as
upstream?

I usually download their release and work on that. It really doesn't matter
where I do that. Of course I report issues upstream in their issue tracker, but
that doesn't need to be on the host where my packaging is.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:19:46PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> Count my vote in as a firm "No". This is going the same road as the
> "editorial changes" two decades ago, the first occasion where my
> motivation in Debian was damaged.

The problem with that GR was that at the time of voting, people did not realize
what they were deciding. With this GR that won't be the case, if people like
you explain what the problem is. So I don't believe it is a similar situation.

But please, in order to avoid the problem, elaborate on what the problem with
this proposal is.

Thanks,
Bas

Thread

Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-09-12 19:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2019-09-12 20:00 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <preining@logic.at> - 2019-09-13 01:30 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-09-16 19:10 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-10-04 17:10 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2019-09-12 22:30 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Dr. Bas Wijnen" <wijnen@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 00:50 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2019-09-13 08:20 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 20:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-12 22:50 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Yao Wei <mwei@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 01:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 20:20 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Yao Wei (魏銘廷)" <mwei@debian.org> - 2019-09-15 23:00 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2019-09-16 15:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-09-13 02:40 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 04:30 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Louis-Philippe Véronneau <pollo@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 18:00 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-10-04 18:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-10-04 18:30 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-10-05 01:20 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-10-09 16:20 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2019-10-10 00:20 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-10-04 20:40 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> - 2019-10-04 21:20 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2019-10-06 08:50 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2019-10-06 15:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Jose-Luis Rivas <ghostbar@debian.org> - 2019-10-07 05:30 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Michael Lustfield <michael@lustfield.net> - 2019-10-08 10:10 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services "Xavier" <yadd@debian.org> - 2019-10-08 13:10 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2019-10-08 17:00 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2019-10-09 00:40 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ondrej Novy <novy@ondrej.org> - 2019-10-09 12:40 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-10-09 16:20 +0200
        Re: I think We're Done: Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-10-09 17:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 09:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Andy Simpkins <rattusrattus@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 13:00 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Dmitry Eremin-Solenikov <dbaryshkov@gmail.com> - 2019-09-13 13:10 +0200
    Re: Debian and Non-Free Services MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> - 2019-09-13 15:00 +0200
      Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-09-13 17:00 +0200
        Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-09-13 17:40 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> - 2019-09-13 18:00 +0200
          Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2019-09-16 19:00 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-09-13 13:40 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-09-13 19:50 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Bart Martens <bartm@debian.org> - 2019-09-15 20:10 +0200
  Re: Debian and Non-Free Services Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2019-09-16 23:10 +0200

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