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Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas

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>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> writes:

    Paul> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 5:32 AM Holger Levsen wrote:
    >> LTS is accepted by the Debian community.

    Paul> I'm not entirely sure this fully represents the range of feelings
    Paul> about the LTS efforts.

    Paul> There are a few things that are possibly concerning:

    Paul> This means that if Freexian decides to end its provision of services
    Paul> for Debian LTS, then the level of work done for LTS would go down
    Paul> significantly. Were this to happen, it would either significantly
    Paul> damage the image of Debian due to having to end the LTS effort or
    Paul> require us to do work which we have had a hard time finding volunteers
    Paul> for in the past.

If Freexian were to end its LTS effort because the funding disappeared,
then I do not think Debian's image would be significantly damaged by
ending LTS.
We've made it clear that we're doing this because people are funding it.
If they stop and are not replaced with people doing the work, then
market demand has disappeared.

If Freexian stopped their LTS effort but people were still interested in
funding LTS, I suspect we could find someone else willing to handle the
administrative aspects of it.

    Paul> https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Team

    Paul> There is strong coupling between Debian and Freexian in the language
    Paul> on the Debian LTS pages and the Freexian pages. This is free
    Paul> advertising for Freexian's LTS services and representing Freexian's
    Paul> LTS services as "blessed" by Debian or somehow "official", which could
    Paul> be objected to by other companies who might decide to provide security
    Paul> support services. It may be prudent to remove or alter the language on
    Paul> the Debian LTS pages.

I actually think it's important for us as a project to endorce or
support people doing great work in our communities.
That's something we can do that significantly increases user confidence
and makes it easier for people to partner with us.

If we get the objections you're talking about, let's find a way to
figure out whether we should be blessing or making those other companies
official too.

I've seen a number of discussions over the years about partnering with
people stall because we wanted to establish a bunch of rules ahead of
time.
I do think it's important that we respond to objections from people who
want to be included and are not.  I think the best response will be to
work with those organizations and figure out how they can be included
too.

Yes, if we get a bunch of different organizations jumping up and down to
work on LTS, we'll have to figure out rules for inclusion.  It seems
that whatever those rules are, Freexian (today) would be one of the
official partners.

So, I think both our users and the free software community are best
served by being honest that we are working closely with Freexian.

    Paul> https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding

    Paul> As far as I can tell, the sole communication between the LTS team and
    Paul> the list of individuals/organisations doing consulting around Debian
    Paul> is a mail attempting to recruit folks to work for Freexian. As far as
    Paul> I can tell, there has been no suggestion that
    Paul> individuals/organisations doing consulting around Debian add
    Paul> themselves to the list of organisations available to hire to work on
    Paul> LTS. This means that the individuals/organisations doing consulting
    Paul> around Debian miss out on the opportunities to work on LTS.

If we get feedback from people who would like to work on LTS but who
don't think the current structure works for them, we should definitely
look into that.

    Paul> https://www.debian.org/consultants/
    Paul> https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20160502094142.GA19672@home.ouaza.com

    Paul> Freexian doesn't fund LTS contributors who are not DDs/DMs: this
    Paul> eliminates skilled developers from outside Debian who could contribute
    Paul> to LTS via Freexian and eventually work on Debian more generally. This
    Paul> seems to have prevented at least one former Debian member who was
    Paul> interested in Freexian's offer from contributing. It might also make
    Paul> LTS funding seem like a reward for Debian insiders.

The difference between reward and job qualification small here.
Or put another way, if doing a bunch of hard work to learn about Debian
packaging and contributing to our community opens up opportunities for
our members and maintainers, that sounds great to me.

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  Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-26 11:40 +0200
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        Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Jérémy Lal <kapouer@melix.org> - 2019-05-27 00:00 +0200
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        Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 08:20 +0200
          Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 09:00 +0200
            Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 03:10 +0200
              Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 07:00 +0200
                Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 08:50 +0200
                RE:Difficult Packaging Practices PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel <frederic-emmanuel.picca@synchrotron-soleil.fr> - 2019-05-28 09:10 +0200
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                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 10:40 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 10:50 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 11:10 +0200
                paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to realise  good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-05-30 23:40 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to  realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-03 03:30 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to  realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-06-03 11:50 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to  realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Joël Krähemann <jkraehemann@gmail.com> - 2019-06-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-03 17:00 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2019-05-31 07:20 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-31 08:30 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-05-31 17:40 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas Mo Zhou <lumin@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 11:40 +0200
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                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-05-31 23:10 +0200
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                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 01:00 +0200
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                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2019-06-02 15:50 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-05-30 03:40 +0200
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