paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices))

From	Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices))
Date	2019-05-30 23:40 +0200
Message-ID	<y3AWd-2QG-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 11:01:44AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > > Use the $300,000 on our bank accounts?
> > I heard that this didn't work out well the last time ("dunc tank"),
> > though that was before the time I followed Debian development.
> Yes, I was there (and mention it briefly in the questions of the talk I
> gave) but it's been a long time ago. 

that dunc tank has been 10y ago doesnt really mean things have changed.

> There are things to learn
> from this failed experiment (such as "don't let the DPL decide alone who
> gets paid") but there are also many reasons to believe that we are no
> longer in the same situation.

well, "believe"...

> At that time, the number of persons working
> on open source as part of their paid work was rather low and the jealousy
> aspect was likely more problematic than it would be today. We have been
> getting used to have Debian contributors being paid (such as on LTS) and
> we know that with appropriate rules, the social impact of the use of money
> is acceptable.

I'm not sure this conclusion is true. True, nowadays there are probably
more people being paid to work on free software (but then, also 10y many
people were paid doing that) and true, there's now Debian LTS, which
pays very few Debian people to do work which many Debian people consider
boring.

But there's one significant difference between LTS and dunc tank: dunc
tank was ment as an initiative inside Debian, while LTS is carefully set
up on both sides, in- and outside Debian, and the money part of it is
*completly* handled outside Debian, and I very much like this and I
consider this a main reason why LTS is accepted by the Debian community.

I *believe* things can become ugly very easily if a volunteer projects
decides about salaries and whom to hire and fire, to give two basic
examples.

Also, once motivation has been destroyed, it can be very hard to
impossible to rebuild it. Money can be a huge motivator, and a huge
demotivator as well.

So I don't think LTS has shown that "this can work", as in LTS we have a
very nice benevolent dictator and as such the setup is very different
from what I imagine would be a Debian setup.

I'd much rather have an/more external entity/project/s paying people
doing Debian work. And if that entity is a charity as/under SPI, Debian
could even transfer money to that entity.

-- 
tschau,
	Holger, who is getting paid for free software work, incl. LTS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
               holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
       PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C

Thread

Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Sam Hartman <leader@debian.org> - 2019-05-25 19:30 +0200
  Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-26 11:40 +0200
    Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-26 12:10 +0200
      Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-26 19:30 +0200
        Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments  by 2019-06-16 Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2019-05-27 06:30 +0200
          Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-27 08:50 +0200
            Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments  by 2019-06-16 Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2019-05-29 08:00 +0200
          Re: Consensus Call: Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments  by 2019-06-16 Alex Mestiashvili <amestia@rsh2.donotuse.de> - 2019-05-27 14:00 +0200
    Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments  by 2019-06-16 Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-05-26 21:40 +0200
      Difficult Packaging Practices Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-26 23:10 +0200
        Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Jérémy Lal <kapouer@melix.org> - 2019-05-27 00:00 +0200
        Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 01:30 +0200
          Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 13:40 +0200
        Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 08:20 +0200
          Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 09:00 +0200
            Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 03:10 +0200
              Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 07:00 +0200
                Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 08:50 +0200
                RE:Difficult Packaging Practices PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel <frederic-emmanuel.picca@synchrotron-soleil.fr> - 2019-05-28 09:10 +0200
                Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 09:40 +0200
                Re: Difficult Packaging Practices (OT) Thomas Dettbarn <dettus@dettus.net> - 2019-05-28 09:50 +0200
                Re: Difficult Packaging Practices (OT) Alex Mestiashvili <amestia@rsh2.donotuse.de> - 2019-05-28 10:20 +0200
                RE:Difficult Packaging Practices (OT) PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel <frederic-emmanuel.picca@synchrotron-soleil.fr> - 2019-05-28 10:50 +0200
                Simplified Debianization Process (was: Re: Difficult Packaging  Practices (OT) Mo Zhou <lumin@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 11:10 +0200
          Re: Difficult Packaging Practices Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 14:00 +0200
            Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2019-05-29 08:50 +0200
              Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 09:00 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 10:40 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Ansgar <ansgar@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 10:50 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 11:10 +0200
                paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to realise  good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-05-30 23:40 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to  realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-06-03 03:30 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to  realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2019-06-03 11:50 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to  realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices)) Joël Krähemann <jkraehemann@gmail.com> - 2019-06-06 20:50 +0200
                Re: paying people for Debian work (Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-03 17:00 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2019-05-31 07:20 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult Packaging Practices) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-31 08:30 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas (Was: Difficult  Packaging Practices) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-05-31 17:40 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas Mo Zhou <lumin@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 11:40 +0200
                Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 13:50 +0200
                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-05-31 22:40 +0200
                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-05-31 23:10 +0200
                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 01:00 +0200
                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 01:00 +0200
                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-01 23:00 +0200
                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-02 00:20 +0200
                Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2019-06-02 15:50 +0200
                Re: Why do we take so long to realise good ideas Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2019-05-30 03:40 +0200
      Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2019-05-26 23:20 +0200
        Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments  by 2019-06-16 Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-05-30 20:50 +0200
      Re: Consensus Call: Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 14:00 +0200
      Re: Consensus Call: Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments  by 2019-06-16 Scott Leggett <scott@sl.id.au> - 2019-05-27 14:50 +0200
      Re: Consensus Call: Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 20:00 +0200
  Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-05-27 07:10 +0200
    Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-27 14:00 +0200
      Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2019-05-27 16:40 +0200
  Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2019-05-28 17:00 +0200
    Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-28 17:10 +0200
  Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments  by 2019-06-16 Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2019-06-17 00:10 +0200
    Re: Consensus Call:  Do We Want to Require or Recommend DH; comments by 2019-06-16 Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-17 00:50 +0200

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