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Groups > linux.debian.project > #10524
| From | Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | linux.debian.project |
| Subject | Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money |
| Date | 2019-06-01 01:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <y3YOS-10j-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <y33dU-6IE-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <y35fH-7Xe-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <y3WtH-7S9-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <y3XpL-8s8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <y3Yc9-xx-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| Organization | The Eyrie |
Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes: > My biggest high level concern is the income side, since this is the most > difficult part and will likely also be the most controversial one. I could well be entirely wrong, but the part that I would expect to be the most controversial is that, once Debian starts spending project money to pay people to do work that other people in the project are doing for free, the project is doing a form of picking winners and losers. We're deciding as a project that some people's work is valuable enough to pay for and (by omission if nothing else) other people's work is not, and for all the good intentions that we have going in, there are so many ways for this to go poorly. If we're only hiring people from *outside* the project, not each other, maybe that avoids the worst of the problems, but it's still an odd dynamic. For example, it creates a perverse incentive for someone to resign from the project so that they can be paid for the work they're currently doing as a volunteer. I'm particularly concerned what will happen if something goes wrong: we pay someone to do additional work and that work isn't up to the quality standards that we need. Now what? If that person is also a Debian Developer, we have now introduced an aspect of job performance feedback into a volunteer community. While doubtless there are Debian Developers who are also managers in their day jobs, that's not something anyone is currently doing *in Debian*. Managing feedback and consequences for poor performance is a skill that we are not currently exercising and that is not trivial to learn. These problems generally go away with externally-funded initiatives such as LTS. In that case, even when Debian Developers are involved, it's clear that the person with the money is making contract and hiring decisions, is the person who can decide to fire someone from that contract if they don't like the work being done, and any decisions made there are entirely separate from one's ongoing Debian work as a volunteer. People still have to decide what they're willing to do for free and what they want to be paid for, but it helps a lot that LTS is scoped to one specific problem and has resources such that, if everyone else decides they're not willing to do LTS support for free, the initiative still survives. It also helps considerably that LTS was something we as a project had decided not to do with pure volunteer resources, so it's a pure incremental on top of project work. Maybe we can find more things like LTS that are pure incrementals over what the project is currently doing, but I'm pretty worried about the social dynamic of paying people to do core project work that others are currently doing for free. I assume the above is the sort of thing that Sam is referring to when he says that we need to have a higher-level discussion if we're going to pursue this idea. -- Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-29 13:50 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-05-31 22:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-05-31 23:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 01:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-06-01 01:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 01:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 01:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money "G. Branden Robinson" <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> - 2019-06-01 23:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-02 00:20 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> - 2019-06-02 15:50 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-05-31 23:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 00:30 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 01:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2019-06-01 01:20 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ximin Luo <infinity0@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 04:50 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 05:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ximin Luo <infinity0@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 06:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 06:20 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-01 09:20 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ximin Luo <infinity0@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 06:20 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2019-06-01 13:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Luca Filipozzi <lfilipoz@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 17:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2019-06-01 18:20 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2019-06-02 08:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2019-06-01 07:50 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 11:50 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org> - 2019-06-01 09:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 15:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2019-06-04 02:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-04 02:50 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2019-06-04 14:30 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <leader@debian.org> - 2019-06-14 12:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <leader@debian.org> - 2019-06-15 15:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2019-06-04 16:30 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-05 23:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 11:40 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Judit Foglszinger <fgrfgr@freenet.de> - 2019-06-01 12:50 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 20:00 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 20:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 20:20 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 15:10 +0200
Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2019-06-01 16:40 +0200
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