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Groups > alt.usage.english > #1152487
| Subject | Re: Fat books |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.usage.english, sci.physics.relativity, rec.arts.sf.written |
| References | <11amvqh$15f3n$1@dont-email.me> <6AD3C2CC.475F@ix.netcom.com> <11b1960$ot1n$1@dont-email.me> |
| From | Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> |
| Organization | Watcom Pro Ltd. |
| Message-ID | <wk2BS.563$K1P4.277@fx14.ams4> (permalink) |
| Date | 2026-10-18 19:46 +0800 |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 10/18/2026 9:59 AM, BobbieSellers wrote: > On 10/17/26 11:47, The Starmaker wrote: >> Peter Moylan wrote: >>> >>> I've griped about this issue before, but once again I find myself >>> annoyed. >>> >>> I was reading "Robots and Empire", by Isaac Asimov. This is possibly the >>> worst novel Asimov ever wrote. As a story it's mostly well-told, but the >>> padding and waffle are enough to irritate the most patient reader. >>> >>> Let me quote from Chapter 45. "I think you must either get to the point, >>> Dr Mandamus, or leave." This is not the only such case. Many of the >>> characters in the book are incapable of getting to the point. They take >>> half a dozen pages to say something that could be put in one chort >>> paragraph. Get to the point, Dr Asimov. It's so bad that even the >>> characters in the story are complaining about the padding. >>> >>> A competent editor could have made this a much better book by cutting it >>> to about one third of its length. >>> >>> I wonder whether this hurt Asimov's reputation. I've certainly seen >>> comments that his later (thick) books are not as good as his earlier >>> writing. >>> >>> It's not all his fault. Many other authors are as bad. They're used to >>> being paid by the page, and publishers are letting them get away with >>> it. Maybe publishers don't employ editors any more, and have given up >>> any attempt at quality control. There are some authors that I refuse to >>> read because their books are too thick. >>> >>> But surely, I tell myself, the publishers must have noticed that books >>> don't sell as well as they used to. Or do they? Am I the only person to >>> complain about this? >>> >>> -- >>> Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org >>> Newcastle, NSW > > Actually Peter Moylan is incorrect. Authors were paid > usually by the word from SF magazines back in the 1940s. The > best author were not necessarily prolix. > In the case of JRR Tolkien the published cut the > Lord of the Rings from one big fat book to a Trilogy due > to the difficulty of getting so much paper from the factory > to the bookshelves of the stores. Which in turn created the /fantasy trilogy/, in both readers' and pub- lishers' minds. It's not really worth mentioning, other than some peo- ple attribute this to Tolkien himself, rather than his publisher. > >> >> >> >> This is not literary criticism. It is a self-indulgent tantrum from a >> reader who confuses personal irritation with objective analysis and then >> tries to inflate it into an industry-wide conspiracy. > > Pretty much the case I believe. > >> >> You mistake dialogue for padding and call it proof. Quoting one >> character telling another to get to the point does not demonstrate >> authorial failure. It demonstrates a character who is frustrated. >> Treating in-story dialogue as a meta-confession by Asimov is the >> critical equivalent of believing a novel’s villain is the author’s >> autobiography. >> "Could have been cut to one-third" is pure assertion without a >> single concrete cut. You offer zero page counts, zero scene breakdowns, >> zero demonstration that removing two-thirds would leave a coherent plot, >> character arc, or thematic payoff. That is not editing advice. That is >> fantasy surgery performed with a chainsaw and no anatomy knowledge. >> You leap from one book you dislike to a sweeping claim about >> Asimov’s later career and reputation. "I’ve seen comments" is anecdotal >> garbage. No sales data, no critical consensus metrics, no comparison of >> contemporaneous reviews versus later ones. You are treating your own >> annoyance as a proxy for market and critical judgment. >> The "paid by the page" explanation is historically illiterate. >> Modern trade publishing does not pay authors by the page or by the word >> in the way pulp magazines once did. Advances and royalties are based on >> projected sales and contract terms, not length. Blaming "payment by the >> page" for 1980s–90s hardcovers is simply wrong. >> You treat thickness as an automatic quality defect. Many of the most >> commercially and critically successful novels of the last fifty years >> are long. Length is not the variable; density and necessity are. You >> never distinguish between the two. >> >> >> You assume that every reader shares your patience threshold and that >> anything exceeding it is objectively padded. You assume publishers have >> abandoned editing because books are long, ignoring the existence of >> developmental editors, copy editors, and the commercial reality that >> certain audiences buy thick books precisely because they want immersion. > > I was formerly a very fast reader and chose longer stories by > trusted authors for that sort of reason. I have never seen movies of > popular books that I have read because they are usually disappointing. > I read all of the Vampire stories of Charlene Harris before I saw > the multi-episode "True Blood" and I found it far inferior to the book. > People who prefer the visual version of such stories suffer I fear > from stunted imaginations. That is the same reason I have never > watched the Lord of the Rings motion pictures though I understand > that these are deemed marvelous by viewers. I'm still a /fast reader/, but it depends on the subject and day. My current reading speed is more a function of physical health, than any- thing else. > > >> You assume declining sales (if real) are caused by length rather than >> competing media, changing leisure habits, price, or content. You never >> admit the possibility that Robots and Empire was written at that length >> because Asimov chose to expand the political and historical scope of his >> universe rather than because he was padding for money. >> Readers who buy series finales and late-career works by established >> authors often want more of the same world, not less. Publishers know >> this; they are not stupid. Editors who routinely gut bestselling >> authors’ manuscripts risk losing the author and the revenue. Your >> preferred "one-third length" version would have to sell to the same >> audience that already accepted the longer book. Competitors and >> imitators in science fiction have thrived with both lean and expansive >> styles. Your refusal to read thick books is a personal filter, not a >> market signal that forces publishers to change. Asimov’s later novels >> sold in large numbers despite (or because of) >> their length. The physical and economic constraints of publishing do not >> make long books inherently unprofitable; paper, printing, and >> distribution costs scale, but so can price and perceived value. Your >> claim that "books don’t sell as well as they used to" is too vague to >> test and ignores category differences, format shifts (ebooks, >> audiobooks), and the fact that some long books still move hundreds of >> thousands of copies. A single reader’s irritation does not scale into >> industry failure. >> The entire causal chain—character dialogue equals authorial padding >> equals payment incentives equals editorial collapse equals sales >> decline—must be discarded. Replace it with actual textual analysis of >> specific scenes that fail to advance plot, character, or theme, >> supported by evidence rather than feelings. The industry diagnosis must >> be rebuilt from contracts, sales data, and editorial practice rather >> than nostalgia and anecdote. >> Nothing of structural value survives. The observation that some late >> Asimov is less tight than early Asimov is a commonplace, not an insight >> you originated or substantiated. >> >> You are not diagnosing a publishing disease. You are complaining that a >> book refused to finish at the exact moment your personal tolerance >> expired, then dressing the complaint up as systemic critique. >> >> The Swarmmaker Fleet > > Pretentious title but Ok for this time. > Books face declining sales for several reasons but the principal > one is that we spend too much time on the Internet and choices by the > paper-makers and politicians have forced cost up up and away beyond > the means of many working and retired people. > > bliss > And in turn, a lot of the working and retired people are now reading free fiction on Gutenberg, RoyalRoad, and similar sites; if not sub- scribing to Kindle Unlimited. Note a lot of ebooks are also available through library "subscriptions." So I guess it's also normal for books to raise prices [1] when the com- petition is literally free [2]. I have previously stated that I prefer well written and edited stories, so prefer to buy my own fiction when I have the budget. That also means I have reading material waiting when I don't have a budget, nor can eas- ily go to a library. Of course, /most people/ aren't reading the books on Gutenberg nor Roy- alRoad, but those people wouldn't buy a book in a book store either, so I don't see much point in counting the people who don't read. I'm veering too much into basic economics [3] so I'll stop now, and try to find myself something to read. [1] This is convoluted, but I'm not going to fix it. Books don't raise their own prices, publishers and bookstores do. [2] Sometimes, when a person can get access to free wifi, and such. [3] Which I have never studied formally, but a lot of people who call themselves economists never think of the /free competition/, which is honestly weird. -- Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/ I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:; Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social
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Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-14 15:18 +1100
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-14 09:21 +0200
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-14 18:31 +1100
Re: Fat books occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-14 11:11 +0200
Re: Fat books Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2026-10-16 06:53 +1100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-16 04:54 +0800
Re: Fat books Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2026-10-16 07:59 +1100
Re: Fat books occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-16 09:04 +0200
the fact that Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-17 10:01 +0200
Re: the fact that athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: the fact that Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-17 17:25 +0800
Re: the fact that Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-10-17 12:20 +0200
Re: the fact that John Dunlop <dunlop.john@ymail.com> - 2026-10-17 13:57 +0100
Re: the fact that John Dunlop <dunlop.john@ymail.com> - 2026-10-17 14:21 +0100
Re: the fact that Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-17 17:17 +0100
Re: the fact that athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-17 16:30 +0000
Re: the fact that John Dunlop <dunlop.john@ymail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:14 +0100
Re: the fact that athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:50 +0000
Re: the fact that John Dunlop <dunlop.john@ymail.com> - 2026-10-23 14:07 +0100
Re: the fact that Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-10-19 15:51 +0200
Re: the fact that Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-18 09:44 +1100
Re: the fact that occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-18 15:05 +0200
Re: the fact that Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:44 +0100
Re: the fact that occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-18 16:33 +0200
Re: the fact that Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-18 18:59 +0200
Re: the fact that Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-18 18:57 +0200
Re: the fact that richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-10-18 18:29 +0000
Re: the fact that Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-19 00:33 +0200
Re: the fact that athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-19 06:30 +0000
Re: the fact that nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-26 23:30 +0100
Re: the fact that nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-26 23:30 +0100
Re: the fact that nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-26 23:30 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-14 17:05 +0800
Re: Fat books athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-14 13:04 +0000
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-15 06:25 +0200
Re: Fat books athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-15 06:21 +0000
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-15 12:43 +0100
Re: Fat books John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 08:02 -0700
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-15 06:46 +0200
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-15 15:02 +0800
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-15 12:46 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-15 21:48 +0800
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-15 21:57 +0200
Re: Fat books Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-10-18 10:07 +0530
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-18 10:33 +0100
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-18 12:30 +0200
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-18 19:22 +0100
Re: Fat books Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 12:59 -0700
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-18 22:35 +0200
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-19 00:53 +0100
Re: Fat books Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 23:35 -0400
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-19 13:21 +0100
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-19 20:14 +0100
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-19 21:40 +0200
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-19 14:47 +0200
Re: Fat books Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:59 -0700
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-20 10:31 +0100
Re: Fat books Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2026-10-21 10:56 -0400
Re: Fat books ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-21 15:33 +0000
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-21 23:34 +0800
Re: Fat books Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-10-21 18:29 -0400
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-22 10:46 +0800
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-22 14:36 +1100
Re: Fat books Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-10-21 22:25 -0700
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-22 12:54 +0100
Re: Fat books Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-10-22 17:40 -0400
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-23 10:52 +0800
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-22 20:06 +0100
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-23 07:22 +1100
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-23 10:00 +0100
Re: Fat books Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-10-22 17:33 -0300
Re: Fat books Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2026-10-22 16:41 -0400
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-23 00:43 +0100
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-23 10:43 +0200
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-23 10:43 +0200
Re: Fat books athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-23 13:32 +0000
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-24 00:22 +0800
Re: Fat books Carlo XYZ <carloxyz@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-23 21:50 +0200
Re: Fat books athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-24 07:00 +0000
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-24 08:10 +0100
Re: Fat books occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-24 11:38 +0200
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-24 10:50 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-24 18:07 +0800
Re: Fat books Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-10-24 09:13 -0400
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-24 17:27 +0100
Re: Fat books Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-10-24 21:18 +0200
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-25 06:17 +0000
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-25 06:22 +0000
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-25 10:36 +0000
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-25 20:22 +1100
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-25 10:38 +0000
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-25 04:25 +0800
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-24 21:35 -0700
Re: Fat books squalk <sq@net.invalid> - 2026-10-25 20:34 +0000
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-25 14:56 -0700
Re: Fat books athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-24 10:10 +0000
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-24 11:18 +0100
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-25 20:30 +1100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-25 18:18 +0800
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-25 18:09 +0000
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-26 05:47 +0000
Re: Fat books Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-10-26 10:56 +0000
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-24 14:23 +0200
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-21 20:13 +0100
Re: Fat books Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2026-10-22 14:30 -0400
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-21 21:26 +0200
Re: Fat books Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-10-19 10:53 +0200
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-18 22:35 +0200
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-16 03:42 +0200
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-19 13:18 +0100
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-20 05:18 +0200
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-16 19:40 +1300
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-16 21:19 +1100
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-16 23:32 +1300
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-19 16:00 +1300
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-20 17:01 +1300
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-17 09:27 +0200
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-18 09:40 +1300
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-18 04:02 +0200
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-18 17:55 +1300
Re: Fat books Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-10-14 10:31 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-14 17:48 +0800
Re: Fat books Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-10-14 20:02 -0300
Re: Fat books occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-15 08:19 +0200
Re: Fat books Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-10-15 16:09 -0300
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-16 04:56 +0800
Re: Fat books occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-16 09:09 +0200
Re: Fat books richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-10-16 09:03 +0000
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-16 10:27 +0100
Re: Fat books occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-10-16 12:22 +0200
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-19 11:05 +0100
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-15 12:34 +0100
Re: Fat books wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-10-14 16:44 +0000
Re: Fat books athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-14 17:21 +0000
Re: Fat books wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-10-14 17:46 +0000
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-14 22:29 +0200
Re: Fat books Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-10-14 18:15 +0000
Re: Fat books Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-10-14 20:37 +0200
Re: Fat books Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-10-14 21:40 +0100
Re: Fat books Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2026-10-14 23:19 +0100
Re: Fat books Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-10-15 00:42 +0200
Re: Fat books Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-10-15 08:48 +0100
Re: Fat books Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-10-15 00:34 +0200
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-14 22:29 +0200
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-15 16:57 +1100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-15 16:01 +0800
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-15 16:06 +0800
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-15 12:15 +0200
Re: Fat books Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-10-14 20:16 +0100
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-14 22:49 +0200
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-15 12:33 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-15 22:00 +0800
Re: Fat books athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:35 +0000
Re: Fat books Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-10-16 10:49 +0100
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-16 21:37 +1100
Ferraro's Programmer's Guide to the EGA, VGA, and Super VGA Cards (was: Re: Fat books) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-16 19:29 +0800
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-16 19:33 +0800
Re: Fat books Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:49 -0700
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-16 21:49 +1100
Re: Fat books kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2026-10-16 11:28 -0400
Re: Fat books Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2026-10-16 09:33 -0700
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-17 06:35 +0100
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-17 11:47 -0700
Re: Fat books Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-17 12:54 -0600
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-18 09:40 +1300
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-17 22:33 -0700
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-17 22:38 -0700
Re: Fat books BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-10-17 23:07 -0700
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-18 18:14 +1100
Re: Fat books BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-10-18 07:33 -0700
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-18 21:02 +1300
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-18 21:22 +1100
Re: Fat books BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-10-18 07:42 -0700
Re: Fat books William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 16:42 -0400
Re: Fat books Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-18 14:48 -0600
Re: Fat books kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2026-10-18 20:48 -0400
Re: Fat books BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:56 -0700
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-18 19:53 -0700
Re: Fat books Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 23:39 -0400
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-19 15:07 +1100
Re: Fat books BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:51 -0700
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-19 13:06 +1100
Re: Fat books Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 23:45 -0400
Re: Fat books BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:54 -0700
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-19 11:44 +0200
Re: Fat books kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2026-10-19 15:42 -0400
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-19 13:53 +1100
Re: Fat books Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2026-10-18 22:18 -0700
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-19 18:43 +1300
Re: Fat books Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2026-10-19 22:03 -0700
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-20 18:37 +1300
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-20 13:09 +0200
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-21 09:30 +1100
Re: Fat books Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 07:15 -0400
Re: Fat books "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2026-10-19 23:08 +1100
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:28 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-18 19:33 +0800
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:45 +0100
Re: Fat books Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-10-18 20:06 +0530
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 20:40 +0800
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 20:35 +0800
Re: Fat books Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2026-10-18 09:04 -0700
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-18 13:02 -0700
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-18 17:25 -0700
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-18 21:39 +0200
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-18 17:06 -0700
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-19 14:47 +0200
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-20 08:33 +1100
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-20 13:09 +0200
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:00 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-19 21:04 +0800
Re: Fat books Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-10-19 18:31 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 05:55 +0800
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-20 10:37 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 20:43 +0800
Re: Fat books Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-10-20 05:39 +0200
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-20 07:01 +0100
Re: Fat books Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-10-20 08:57 +0100
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-20 10:42 +0100
Re: Fat books Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 12:23 -0700
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-22 12:56 +0100
Re: Fat books Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-10-21 09:17 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-21 20:51 +0800
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-20 13:09 +0200
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 20:51 +0800
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-19 21:40 +0200
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 05:58 +0800
Re: Fat books nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-10-20 13:09 +0200
Re: Fat books Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-10-20 14:00 +0000
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 22:06 +0800
Re: Fat books Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-21 01:01 +0100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-21 10:38 +0800
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 07:18 -0700
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 23:02 +0800
Re: Fat books Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2026-10-20 15:15 +0100
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 08:05 -0700
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 08:28 -0700
Re: Fat books kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2026-10-20 12:14 -0400
Re: Fat books Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-10-20 19:15 +0000
Re: Fat books Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-10-20 12:43 -0700
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 15:29 -0700
Re: Fat books Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-10-20 18:32 -0700
Re: Fat books Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2026-10-22 12:02 +1300
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-21 20:35 -0700
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-21 10:28 -0700
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-21 10:44 -0700
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-22 01:49 +0800
Re: Fat books Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-10-21 10:59 -0700
Re: Fat books kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2026-10-20 12:13 -0400
Re: Fat books Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2026-10-20 09:13 -0700
Re: Fat books Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-10-20 09:53 -0700
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-21 11:22 +1100
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-21 10:48 +0800
Re: Fat books Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-10-21 17:25 +1100
Re: Fat books Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-10-21 19:19 -0400
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-18 19:50 -0700
Re: Fat books BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:59 -0700
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-18 19:46 +0800
Re: Fat books William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 16:57 -0400
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-18 16:48 -0700
Re: Fat books The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-10-18 16:57 -0700
Re: Fat books Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-20 21:04 +0800
Re: Fat books William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 15:09 -0400
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