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Re: Usage of real m68k hardware

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Hi Chris!

On 03/28/2018 06:01 PM, Chris Lamb wrote:
> May I gently and cordially ask for a toning down of the rhethoric
> in this thread? :)

Yes, of course. But Andreas hit a nerve with this on me. This project
has cost me lots of blood, tears and sweat and if someone is asking
for it to be completely thrown out out of nothing, I'm getting a bit
stressed out.

> Whilst everyone would agree that the m68k port has its problems and is
> certainly capable of imposing undue drain on developer time, I'm sure
> most would also understand and perhaps even relate to Andreas'
> frustrations.

Well, we as porters and buildd maintainers have also had lots of frustration
with packages from Debian Science. There were many issues even on release
architectures which arose due to the poor quality of the scientific packages.
Some people from the Debian Science team have previously abused the buildds
as test machines instead of using the various porter boxes the project offers
for such purposes so that I eventually had to send out a mail asking them
to stop doing that.

On the other hand, we often send patches not just for ports architectures
but also release architectures to help fix bugs in packages from the
Debian Science team. So it's not that we are not willing to help and
make their life easier.

> However, that's no real excuse for such an opening salvo to a public
> list and, whilst I do not condone them either, one should not be overly
> surprised to receive defensive and generally unproductive replies to
> such a posting.

Indeed. The point is: Everyone sees a different purpose and usecase in
Debian. And while for Andreas Debian is the basis for doing scientific
work, for me Debian is the basis for hacking on projects like QEMU,
various compilers and the kernel. And many people in- and outside Debian
Ports enjoy doing that as well. It's a valid usecase in my opinion. And,
yes, as crazy as this all sounds, people actually use Debian on m68k,
those machines are particularly popular in Germany, for example.

Debian calls itself the "Universal Operating System" after all and
therefore no single user or developer should get to tell others what
to do with Debian or not.

> In my experience, most arguments (not "mere" disagreements) have stemmed
> from regrettable miscommunication but all of them have ever helped by an
> argumentative or combative character, especially ones underlined with
> threats.

Well, if Andreas wouldn't have asked for the ultima ratio right from
the beginning, there would probably have been a more constructive
discussion. I am always open to discussion and would like to help
the project and other members whereever I can.

In this particular case the solution is actually rather simple: My
suggestion would be that anyone who is about to write bug reports
against issues on the ports architectures just joins #debian-ports
and quickly asks for feedback before filing a bug report.

In most cases, people will get a helpful answer as we have many
competent and motivated folks on the channel who are always open
to help.

So, I'd like to invite people to please just ask on #debian-ports
in the future before filing bug reports which could cause such
misunderstandings.

Thanks,
Adrian

-- 
 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-    GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

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Thread

Usage of real m68k hardware Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-28 08:40 +0200
  Re: Usage of real m68k hardware John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2018-03-28 09:00 +0200
    Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-28 10:00 +0200
      Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Carsten Strotmann <cas@strotmann.de> - 2018-03-28 10:20 +0200
      Re: Usage of real m68k hardware John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2018-03-28 10:20 +0200
        Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Laurent Vivier <laurent@vivier.eu> - 2018-03-28 10:20 +0200
        Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 11:50 +0200
      Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Chris Lamb <lamby@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 11:10 +0200
        Re: Usage of real m68k hardware John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> - 2018-03-28 11:40 +0200
          Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-28 12:10 +0200
            Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 12:30 +0200
            Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-03-28 13:40 +0200
          Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Thorsten Glaser <t.glaser@tarent.de> - 2018-04-17 19:30 +0200
            Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Ingo Jürgensmann <ij@2018.bluespice.org> - 2018-04-17 21:40 +0200
  Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Ingo Jürgensmann <ij@2018.bluespice.org> - 2018-03-28 09:30 +0200
  Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Carsten Strotmann <carsten@strotmann.de> - 2018-03-28 10:50 +0200
  Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Finn Thain <fthain@telegraphics.com.au> - 2018-03-28 11:20 +0200
    Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-28 12:20 +0200
      Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> - 2018-03-28 13:00 +0200
      Re: interpretation of wontfix Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 13:10 +0200
        Re: interpretation of wontfix Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-28 14:00 +0200
          Re: interpretation of wontfix Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2018-03-28 14:30 +0200
        Re: interpretation of wontfix Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2018-03-28 14:50 +0200
          Re: interpretation of wontfix Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2018-03-28 17:30 +0200
        Re: interpretation of wontfix Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2018-03-28 15:40 +0200
        Re: interpretation of wontfix Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2018-03-28 19:10 +0200
          Re: interpretation of wontfix Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-03-29 15:00 +0200
            Re: interpretation of wontfix Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2018-03-29 17:20 +0200
            Re: interpretation of wontfix Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2018-03-29 20:30 +0200
        Re: interpretation of wontfix Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 20:10 +0200
          Re: interpretation of wontfix Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2018-03-29 00:10 +0200
            Re: interpretation of wontfix Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-29 08:30 +0200
          Re: interpretation of wontfix Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-03-29 15:10 +0200
            Re: interpretation of wontfix Ian Campbell <ijc@debian.org> - 2018-03-29 15:20 +0200
              Re: interpretation of wontfix Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2018-03-29 16:20 +0200
              Re: interpretation of wontfix Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2018-03-29 16:30 +0200
                Re: interpretation of wontfix Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2018-03-29 20:20 +0200
  Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2018-03-28 14:00 +0200
    Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 19:30 +0200
      Enhanced syntax for Architecture field (Was: Usage of real m68k  hardware) Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-28 20:30 +0200
        Re: Enhanced syntax for Architecture field (Was: Usage of real m68k  hardware) Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-03-28 22:30 +0200
          Re: Enhanced syntax for Architecture field Ole Streicher <olebole@debian.org> - 2018-03-29 09:50 +0200
            Re: Enhanced syntax for Architecture field Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2018-03-29 19:30 +0200
      Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 20:30 +0200
        Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Michael Gilbert <mgilbert@debian.org> - 2018-04-01 01:50 +0200
      Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 22:00 +0200
        Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2018-03-28 22:30 +0200
  Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2018-03-28 19:10 +0200
  Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2018-03-29 14:10 +0200
    Re: Usage of real m68k hardware Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2018-03-29 14:20 +0200

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