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| From | Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.logic, comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems |
| Date | 2024-06-10 23:32 -0400 |
| Organization | i2pn2 (i2pn.org) |
| Message-ID | <v48gh2$3kcoe$2@i2pn2.org> (permalink) |
| References | (9 earlier) <v45pfb$3ph0$1@dont-email.me> <v45q1d$3h641$7@i2pn2.org> <v45qvp$41qf$1@dont-email.me> <v46na2$3ifov$2@i2pn2.org> <v478g9$hcgj$1@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
On 6/10/24 12:09 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/10/2024 6:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/9/24 11:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/9/2024 9:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 6/9/24 10:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/9/2024 2:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/9/24 3:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/9/2024 1:54 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/9/24 2:40 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/2024 1:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/24 2:13 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/2024 1:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/24 1:18 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/2024 10:36 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This has direct application to undecidable decision
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generic answer is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever makes an expression of language true <is> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truthmaker. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entails that if there is nothing in the universe that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes expression X
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true then X lacks a truthmaker and is untrue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> X may be untrue because X is false. In that case ~X has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truthmaker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now we have the means to unequivocally define
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth-bearer. X is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth-bearer iff (if and only if) X or ~X has a truthmaker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been working in this same area as a non-academician
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. I have only focused on expressions of language that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are {true on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basis of their meaning}.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now that truthmaker and truthbearer are fully anchored it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is easy to see
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that self-contradictory expressions are simply not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> truthbearers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> “This sentence is not true” can't be true because that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> untrue and it can't be false because that would make it true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Within the the definition of truthmaker specified above:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> “this sentence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> has no truthmaker” is simply not a truthbearer. It can't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> true within
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the above specified definition of truthmaker because this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> false. It can't be false because that makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless the system is inconsistent, in which case they can be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Note,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When I specify the ultimate foundation of all truth then this
>>>>>>>>>>> does apply to truth in logic, truth in math and truth in
>>>>>>>>>>> science.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Not for Formal system, which have a specific definition
>>>>>>>>>> of its truth-makers, unless you let your definition become
>>>>>>>>>> trivial for Formal logic where a "truth-makers" is what has
>>>>>>>>>> been defined to be the "truth-makers" for the system.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Formal systems are free to define their own truthmakers.
>>>>>>>>> When these definitions result in inconsistency they are
>>>>>>>>> proved to be incorrect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, you admit that your definition is just inconsistant, as it
>>>>>>>> says FOR ALL and then you admit it isn't FOR ALL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And a formal system proven inconsistant isn't necessarily
>>>>>>>> incorrect, just inconsistent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To the extent that they define inconsistency they
>>>>>>> are not truth-makers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> YOU hae a TYPE ERROR in your statement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That just proves that YOUR logic is incorrect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How can a SYSTEM be a propsition?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Stopping at your first big mistake*
>>>>>
>>>>> When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? The generic answer
>>>>> is whatever makes an expression of language true <is> its truthmaker.
>>>>>
>>>>> A cat in your living room is not a proposition yet makes the
>>>>> sentence: "there is a cat in my living room" true, thus <is> its
>>>>> truthmaker.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which isn't a formal system.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A cat in your living room <is> a truthmaker and is not
>>> a formal system.
>>>
>>
>> So, you agree your definiton doesn't work on formal systems?
>>
>
> I never agreed to anything like that.
> When we define truthmaker this self-evidently true way:
>
> When we ask the question: What is a truthmaker? The generic answer is
> whatever makes an expression of language true <is> its truthmaker.
>
> This entails that if there is nothing in the universe that makes
> expression X true then X lacks a truthmaker and is untrue.
>
> Then it is self-evident that this <is> the way that truth really works.
>
So, how does that apply to something that isn't a part of "the
universe", as Formal Logic systems are not.
Their concept of truth is NOT related to any of the facts about our
universe, but only their wholely self-contained system, built on the
agreed upon manner.
I think your problem is you just can't handle that level of abstraction.
Just like you can't understand a logic system allowing "inconsistant
behavior" as not being "wrong".
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Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 10:36 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 12:18 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:13 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:29 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:40 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:54 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 15:36 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 21:47 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 22:56 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 22:12 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-10 07:16 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 11:09 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-10 23:32 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 12:30 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 19:22 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 20:43 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 22:34 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 21:58 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 23:01 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 22:20 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 07:33 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 10:40 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 19:49 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 19:44 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 20:57 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 20:37 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 21:53 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:01 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 22:21 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:32 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 22:42 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 21:53 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 23:15 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 22:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 23:51 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 23:01 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 07:30 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 08:32 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-13 22:45 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-13 22:50 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-14 07:39 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-14 08:58 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-10 09:52 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 23:00 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 11:06 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 20:57 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-11 22:37 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-11 22:17 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 07:33 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 08:05 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 19:55 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-12 20:16 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems --- the way truth really works Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-12 21:48 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems joes <noreply@example.com> - 2024-06-09 17:40 +0000
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 12:52 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:08 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:10 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:31 -0400
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2024-06-09 13:48 -0500
Re: Truthmaker Maximalism and undecidable decision problems Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-06-09 14:57 -0400
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