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Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

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On 10/31/2017 01:36 PM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> ]] Russ Allbery
> 
>> There are two primary reasons why we're continuing to discuss this.  One
>> is that the decision went a direction that a lot of people didn't, and
>> don't, like, and they're still unhappy about it.  There's really nothing
>> that can be done about this; any other decision would have had exactly the
>> same consequence, just with a different set of people.
> 
> We could fix the culture.  We can choose to change our culture into one
> where once we decide on something, that's decided at least until new
> facts emerge.  Instead, we have chosen to have a culture where
> everything can be discussed again and again, until not only is the horse
> dead, but its skin is tatters and its bones meal too.

As a user, this talk of culture and communications and sensitivity training
is baffling. To me it looks like deck chairs on the titanic.

Is it so shocking that it just won't die even after you declared dead?

I see it an existential threat, not a breakdown in Robert's rules of order.

I saw that some Debian members did not seem to believe that software authors
also "do the work," as do those who review, advocate, teach, document,
promote Debian and submit the bug reports.

Maybe they've used it for 20 years and have invested their time, careers and
businesses on Debian. Their views don't count either.

I recall the user debate being shut down before it had even started,
complete with censored posts and deleted threads, because the Maintainers
Have Spoken. Because they "did the work." Your user opinion is "noise."

I recall the slogans and catch-phrases that echoed corporate propaganda
from Red Hat. Debian under new management. Disregard Debian's own position
on init systems. We'll probably just remove it later.

The debate was fierce even within Debian, and the final vote was very close.
The 1% that decide for the rest, couldn't decide.

I can't see it from your insider perspective but from where I sit the whole
thing looks corrupt to the bone. Instead of adopting corporate slogans
start with "follow the money" and at least remove voting privileges from
paid members.

Marty

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Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-10-28 02:30 +0200
  Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-10-28 13:40 +0200
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 01:20 +0200
      Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-10-31 11:10 +0100
        Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-31 17:20 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-10-31 17:50 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Luk Claes <luk.claes@gmail.com> - 2017-10-31 18:20 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-10-31 18:40 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Marty <martyb@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-11-03 23:00 +0100
              Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 00:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Marty <martyb@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-11-07 02:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-11-07 04:00 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Norbert Preining <preining@logic.at> - 2017-12-26 15:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-26 16:10 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-28 11:30 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-28 13:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-28 13:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-12-28 14:00 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-12-28 19:40 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-10-31 18:40 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-02 14:20 +0100
              Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-11-02 14:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-02 19:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 00:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 02:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2017-11-04 02:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-04 06:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2017-11-05 17:10 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-04 05:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-03 14:10 +0100
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 05:30 +0100
  Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 00:00 +0200
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 01:30 +0200

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