Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

From	Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee
Date	2017-10-29 01:20 +0200
Message-ID	<uFIyt-84V-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<uFnaF-2Ir-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <uFxD3-17K-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	The Eyrie

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Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> writes:

> I always found that just focusing on the technical aspects of the Init
> system discussion left out… everything else. Even the issue in itself
> was not purely technical, although back then I had the a feeling that
> almost no one agreed with me that it was not. Just focusing on purely
> technical means in that discussion was in my eyes harmful in itself.

Well, I agreed, and agree, with you that the issue was not purely
technical, and spent a substantial amount of time, effort, and writeup
energy on discussing the non-technical issues.  Your description bears
very little resemblence to the process I was part of.

I think it's really important to not oversimplify past discussions.  We're
in danger of learning the wrong lessons from them.

One of the reasons why the systemd discussion was so painful was precisely
that it could *not* be discussed at a level of purely technical details,
and we all knew it.  Technical details are much easier to reach decisions
of fact on; the systemd discussion was painful precisely because it
*wasn't* and *couldn't* be conducted in the way that you describe.  It
touched on everything from competing visions of the nature of free
software in the project, the meaning of our social contract and
"universal" in the motto of our distribution, the attitudes and behavior
of multiple different upstreams, accusations of corporate conflict of
interest, and deep personal friendships.

There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Thread

Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-10-28 02:30 +0200
  Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-10-28 13:40 +0200
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 01:20 +0200
      Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-10-31 11:10 +0100
        Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-31 17:20 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-10-31 17:50 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Luk Claes <luk.claes@gmail.com> - 2017-10-31 18:20 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-10-31 18:40 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Marty <martyb@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-11-03 23:00 +0100
              Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 00:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Marty <martyb@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-11-07 02:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-11-07 04:00 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Norbert Preining <preining@logic.at> - 2017-12-26 15:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-26 16:10 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-28 11:30 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-28 13:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-28 13:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-12-28 14:00 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-12-28 19:40 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-10-31 18:40 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-02 14:20 +0100
              Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-11-02 14:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-02 19:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 00:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 02:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2017-11-04 02:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-04 06:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2017-11-05 17:10 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-04 05:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-03 14:10 +0100
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 05:30 +0100
  Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 00:00 +0200
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 01:30 +0200

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