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Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

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>>>>> "Russ" == Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> writes:

    Russ> Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> writes:
    >> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:

    >>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.

    >> In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement.

    >> If everyone has been heard, noticed, felt and valued, if
    >> everything has been covered, then why are we discussing it… yet
    >> again now?

    Russ> Those are not equivalent statements.  In that sort of
    Russ> discussion, it is literally impossible to make everyone feel
    Russ> valued, since at least some people on each side will only feel
    Russ> valued if their preferred option is chosen.  That's therefore
    Russ> not a reasonable thing to attempt to achieve; we can try to
    Russ> maximize the number of people who feel valued, but there are
    Russ> usually at least some people involved in this large and
    Russ> sprawling of a decision for whom "valued" is synonymous with
    Russ> "agreed with."

For myself, I've found that if I work with people I can often get to a
point where they feel valued even when there is disagreement.
As you point out that's not true for some people and it is difficult
even when it is possible.

I was not planning on discussing systemd again.

I am discussing how we handle conflict because I hope we can do a better
job of helping  people feel valued even when we do not agree with their
technical positions.
In the limit, I hope to do your literally impossible:-)

Fortunately, I'd be thrilled and filled with joy to simply get closer to
that limit.  Helping create a culture where we have mechanisms to help
ourselves separate value from agreement, and where we value using those
mechanisms would delight me.
I think even that is a hard ask, but I do not think it is literally
impossible.

--Sam

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Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-10-28 02:30 +0200
  Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-10-28 13:40 +0200
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 01:20 +0200
      Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-10-31 11:10 +0100
        Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-31 17:20 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-10-31 17:50 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Luk Claes <luk.claes@gmail.com> - 2017-10-31 18:20 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-10-31 18:40 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Marty <martyb@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-11-03 23:00 +0100
              Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 00:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Marty <martyb@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-11-07 02:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-11-07 04:00 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Norbert Preining <preining@logic.at> - 2017-12-26 15:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-26 16:10 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-12-28 11:30 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-28 13:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> - 2017-12-28 13:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the  Technical Committee Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2017-12-28 14:00 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2017-12-28 19:40 +0100
          Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-10-31 18:40 +0100
            Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-02 14:20 +0100
              Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2017-11-02 14:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-02 19:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 00:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-04 02:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2017-11-04 02:50 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-04 06:40 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2017-11-05 17:10 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Diane Trout <diane@ghic.org> - 2017-11-04 05:20 +0100
                Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2017-11-03 14:10 +0100
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 05:30 +0100
  Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about  the Technical Committee Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 00:00 +0200
    Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2017-10-29 01:30 +0200

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