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Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help

From Bart <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help
Date 2022-09-13 00:03 +0100
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <tfodsg$16j7$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <87r10hzn19.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <tfnh5k$29dcu$1@dont-email.me> <87mtb4wq4f.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <tfnnob$1d8r$1@gioia.aioe.org> <875yhswfiv.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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On 12/09/2022 20:37, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

>> * Specifying narrow storage types for efficient memory use of arrays
>> and structs
> 
> 
>> * Optimising layouts of structs
> 
> I'd prefer an actual example to know what you mean.  It may count, but
> most optimising of structs is really down to the compiler.

I like my structs to be powers of two in size, and as small as possible. 
This can involve very careful crafting of the layout and arrangement, 
using unions a lot, and making some fields do multiple jobs.

Key to that is being 100% confident of how big everything is. I normally 
work also without auto-alignment and auto-padding.

When both 32 and 64 bits were a thing, then pointers were a different 
size between the two systems, requiring separate structs for each. Now I 
work on 64-bit machines only.


>> * If writing C in particular, guaranteeing that an int-type for
>> example is, say, 32 bits. Some might be shorter than needed, others
>> could be longer than needed (say, 'long' when used on 64-bit Linux).
> 
> But why?  That's the whole point.  Outside of the obvious use case of
> matching an externally imposed size, programs usually only care about
> the minimum range of a data type, which is what int_(least|fast)N_t
> types give you.  The intN_t types also give you a maximum range which
> most algorithms don't care about.  The obvious exception (again already
> noted) is where the wrapping of unsigned arithmetic is exactly what
> happens to be wanted.

 > So why not int_leastN_t?

Those Least types are just too weird:

* I have trouble getting my head around what they even mean, and 
wouldn't be able to use them confidently
* I haven't seen them anywhere else outside of C
* I won't know how to port to/from C when Least types are involved
* And in C, they're just too cluttery!

Most languages now with control over type widths either have a set of 
integer types with guaranteed widths (they are listed in the language 
ref), or the widths are part of the type names anyway.

Only a few odd ones might be conditional (like usize (?) in Rust).

I like things short and sweet and with no fuss. Like 'byte' or 'u8'; not 
the ones C offers (see below).

There just shouldn't be a discussion about it. Other language forums 
don't spend their time debating which of half a dozen types should used 
for a byte, or even how many bits it might have (I assume; I haven't 
checked!).

> 
>> For the unsigned int, given that every desktop machine now is 64-bit,
>> and since one issue was the largest possible number, I'd use C's
>> equivalent of u64.
> 
> Why would you not use int_max_t if the handling the largest possible
> number is the issue?

I don't like types, and especially don't like proliferations of integer 
types, like those offset_t and offset64_t and clock_t.

Most of them come down to one of i32 i64 u32 u64 anyway.

For a suitable type for as large an unsigned integer as the hardware can 
deal with comfortably, why choose anything other than u64? This can also 
easily be ported to another language.

(If you are creating bindings for other languages based on headers in C, 
the last thing you want to see in an API is a non-specific type like 
int_max_t or offset_t or even 'long'; you want a concrete type.)

> BTW, I can see why people would want to avoid /all/ of these types,
> especially (as in Tim's code) when writing for beginners.  It's the
> apparent automatic reaching for intN_t that is the issue for me.

I think the problem is mainly with the 8-bit type. If you specifically 
want it unsigned, the choices in C are:

    unsigned char
    uint8_t
    uint_least8_t
    uint_fast8_t

Not a great selection, is it? Forgetting the last two (which I hope 
never to see in any actual code), neither of those first is really 
appealing. I can see why Tim used 'UC'.

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Thread

Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help ManyBeers <markzuffi@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-08 11:34 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-08 11:56 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-08 20:19 +0100
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2022-09-08 12:34 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2022-09-08 20:38 -0600
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-09-09 03:22 -0700
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-09 13:30 +0000
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-09 09:16 -0700
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-09 19:06 +0000
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 11:58 +0200
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 11:37 +0100
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 13:05 +0200
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-10 14:42 +0000
            Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 16:10 +0100
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 18:14 +0200
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 12:54 +0100
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 16:22 +0200
            Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 19:03 +0100
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 19:30 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 19:47 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-11 14:07 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-11 16:12 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-11 17:58 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-11 21:14 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 20:01 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-11 23:32 -0400
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-12 13:52 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-14 03:24 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-14 08:10 -0400
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-12-26 06:09 -0800
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-12 16:53 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 16:48 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-12 17:46 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 20:37 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 00:03 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-13 12:31 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-13 12:48 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 14:18 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2022-09-13 17:13 +0300
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-13 16:50 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 18:47 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 03:16 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-13 20:15 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-13 20:29 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 22:22 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 14:37 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 23:16 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-13 22:16 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 16:15 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 16:15 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-14 10:58 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 15:36 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 21:53 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 05:55 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:10 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 07:54 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 18:32 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-14 18:39 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-15 01:12 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-15 09:11 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-15 08:07 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 18:40 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 05:45 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 12:11 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 09:57 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 03:09 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:29 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 15:14 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-14 07:36 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-10-03 01:10 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-10-03 11:36 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-10-04 02:13 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-10-04 16:27 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 11:48 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:38 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-14 14:27 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 07:58 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-16 13:06 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-16 13:16 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-12 17:55 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-12 18:22 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 20:41 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 15:45 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 15:41 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-12 17:06 +0200
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:46 -0700
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:57 -0700
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 07:07 -0700
        Neologism (Was: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-11 14:18 +0000
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-11 16:33 +0000
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-13 15:40 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-09 23:08 +0000
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:37 -0700
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-11 16:31 +0000
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-13 15:44 -0700

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