Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.c > #167644

Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help
Date 2022-09-12 16:48 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87mtb4wq4f.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <tfkj2l$1t7f3$1@dont-email.me> <8735cy0wt4.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <tfl0im$1vu1b$1@dont-email.me> <87r10hzn19.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <tfnh5k$29dcu$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

> On 11/09/2022 22:14, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>> 
>>> On 11/09/2022 17:12, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> The "fast" and "least" types /do/ have their uses.  There are not many
>>>>> targets that don't support 8-bit char and everything else as a power
>>>>> of 8 bits, but there /are/ a few.  The main class of exceptions are
>>>>> DSP processors, and some highly specialised task-specific embedded
>>>>> processors.  With C23, I believe types (u)int8_t, (u)int16_t,
>>>>> (u)int32_t and (u)int64_t have become mandatory - a target that does
>>>>> not support these natively must simulate them.  This renders the
>>>>> "least" types obsolete.
>>>> You are looking at them entirely from the point of view of portability,
>>>> but their main use is in explaining what data the program needs.  In the
>>>> vast number of cases, writing int_least8_t (say) says exactly what's
>>>> needed and using int8_t says something incorrect about the code.
>>>
>>> C does not have a way to express such requirements in detail.
>>> Languages like Ada and Pascal let you have range types - you can say
>>> you want an integer type that holds a number between 0 and 9 (as is
>>> the case here).
>> No, that was not the case.
>
> Sorry, it should be 0 to 15 the code also converts hex.  But the same
> principle remains.

  "For bases up to 256, these elements can be of type UC - an unsigned
  character can hold all values between 0 and 255"

and there was a general base-b converter in both directions.

<cut>
>> The example is lost and was not, I think, limited in the way you've
>> said.  But I was explicitly not talking about one example.  I said "In
>> the vast number of cases...".  By all means say I'm wrong, or say that
>> you don't care to generalise, but countering a general remark with one
>> specific case is not helpful.
>
> Sorry, I was still considering the particular example.  If we are
> generalising, we still need to have some restrictions to be able to
> say something useful - perhaps "types to hold small non-negative
> numbers" is appropriate.

The generalisation was so wide that I did not think I needed to limit
more than I had (to exclude matching external data layouts).

> I agree with you that "uint_least8_t" and similar types could be
> technically better choices in a number of cases, but not all decisions
> are made for technical reasons.

Indeed.  Some are knee-jerk decisions, and some are, as you describe
below based on a vague unease about what C really is.

> I don't agree that it is better in a
> "vast number" of cases - because it does /not/ say exactly what is
> needed.  In almost all cases of "small number", the upper bound is
> /not/ 255.  Thus "uint_least8_t" does not say exactly what you want -
> it is wrong in a different way from "uint8_t", but still wrong.

Eh?  I can't see how you think I was saying what you are appear to be
replying to.

In the vast majority of cases, when I see intN_t I feel that
int_leastN_t or int_fastN_t would be better, because none of extra
guarantees of intN_t are needed.  I usually just think "ah, this person
does not know about the alternatives".

> I think to some extent it comes down to a subjective opinion of what
> we are willing to be wrong about and what we prefer to be correct
> about in how we code.  There are always compromises.

What are some good examples if the use of the intN_t types?

>>> So as I see it, in many cases (such as Tim's code), using
>>> "uint_least8_t" would be just as much over-specifying the type
>>> requirements as "uint8_t" does, while not giving the programmer or
>>> reader any useful additional information.
>>
>> I disagree about this example, but I also don't want to get into "many".
>> I miss-edited my test and ended up with "In the vast number of cases..."
>> when I meant to say "In the vast majority of cases...".  I hope the word
>> vast made it clear that was not a quibble about numbers.  I worry that,
>> except when matching externally defined structures, the use of the
>> intN_t (and maybe even the uintN_t) types is almost always knee-jerk
>> programming. 
>
> I don't see it as knee-jerk programming - though I can appreciate your
> concern.  (Maybe it /is/ knee-jerk programming for some people.)
>
> This is C programming.  For a lot of C programming, people like to
> know exactly what they get.  (Many people believe C gives them
> stronger guarantees that it really does in that respect, but that's
> another matter.)  The fixed size types gives them that assurance.

I wrote knee-jerk to err on the kind side but I agree that it's often
wanting reassurance, presumably because the programmer does not know
what is assured by the alternatives.

> Are
> they tighter specified than usually required?  Yes, typically - but
> that is generally the case in /all/ programming in /all/ languages.

That's not the point.  The point is are these optional types more
tightly specified than the guaranteed-to-exist alternatives?  I say yes,
but you think that's a matter of opinion.

> We are forever using types or functions that are more general than
> actually needed, ...

Yes, of course.  But that was not the point.

>> My experience of C code post C99 is rather limited so I am open to
>> persuasion here.
>
> I don't know how persuasive I am,

I was hoping for persuasive examples where an intN_t type is better than
an int_(least|fast)N_t type.

<cut>
-- 
Ben.

Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help ManyBeers <markzuffi@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-08 11:34 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-08 11:56 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-08 20:19 +0100
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2022-09-08 12:34 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2022-09-08 20:38 -0600
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-09-09 03:22 -0700
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-09 13:30 +0000
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-09 09:16 -0700
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-09 19:06 +0000
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 11:58 +0200
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 11:37 +0100
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 13:05 +0200
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-10 14:42 +0000
            Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 16:10 +0100
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 18:14 +0200
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 12:54 +0100
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 16:22 +0200
            Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 19:03 +0100
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 19:30 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 19:47 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-11 14:07 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-11 16:12 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-11 17:58 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-11 21:14 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 20:01 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-11 23:32 -0400
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-12 13:52 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-14 03:24 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-14 08:10 -0400
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-12-26 06:09 -0800
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-12 16:53 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 16:48 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-12 17:46 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 20:37 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 00:03 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-13 12:31 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-13 12:48 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 14:18 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2022-09-13 17:13 +0300
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-13 16:50 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 18:47 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 03:16 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-13 20:15 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-13 20:29 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 22:22 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 14:37 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 23:16 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-13 22:16 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 16:15 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 16:15 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-14 10:58 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 15:36 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 21:53 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 05:55 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:10 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 07:54 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 18:32 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-14 18:39 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-15 01:12 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-15 09:11 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-15 08:07 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 18:40 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 05:45 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 12:11 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 09:57 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 03:09 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:29 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 15:14 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-14 07:36 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-10-03 01:10 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-10-03 11:36 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-10-04 02:13 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-10-04 16:27 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 11:48 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:38 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-14 14:27 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 07:58 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-16 13:06 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-16 13:16 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-12 17:55 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-12 18:22 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 20:41 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 15:45 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 15:41 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-12 17:06 +0200
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:46 -0700
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:57 -0700
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 07:07 -0700
        Neologism (Was: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-11 14:18 +0000
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-11 16:33 +0000
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-13 15:40 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-09 23:08 +0000
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:37 -0700
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-11 16:31 +0000
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-13 15:44 -0700

csiph-web