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Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help
Date 2022-09-11 21:14 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87r10hzn19.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <87zgf714zc.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <tfil39$1h9u$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tfkj2l$1t7f3$1@dont-email.me> <8735cy0wt4.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <tfl0im$1vu1b$1@dont-email.me>

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David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

> On 11/09/2022 17:12, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>> 
>>> The "fast" and "least" types /do/ have their uses.  There are not many
>>> targets that don't support 8-bit char and everything else as a power
>>> of 8 bits, but there /are/ a few.  The main class of exceptions are
>>> DSP processors, and some highly specialised task-specific embedded
>>> processors.  With C23, I believe types (u)int8_t, (u)int16_t,
>>> (u)int32_t and (u)int64_t have become mandatory - a target that does
>>> not support these natively must simulate them.  This renders the
>>> "least" types obsolete.
>> You are looking at them entirely from the point of view of portability,
>> but their main use is in explaining what data the program needs.  In the
>> vast number of cases, writing int_least8_t (say) says exactly what's
>> needed and using int8_t says something incorrect about the code.
>
> C does not have a way to express such requirements in detail.
> Languages like Ada and Pascal let you have range types - you can say
> you want an integer type that holds a number between 0 and 9 (as is
> the case here).

No, that was not the case.

But anyway, the fact that you can't say "0 to 9" does not make "exactly
8 bits" better than "at least 8 bits".

> So "uint_least8_t" does not say what we want from a type in this
> example.

The example is lost and was not, I think, limited in the way you've
said.  But I was explicitly not talking about one example.  I said "In
the vast number of cases...".  By all means say I'm wrong, or say that
you don't care to generalise, but countering a general remark with one
specific case is not helpful.

> So as I see it, in many cases (such as Tim's code), using
> "uint_least8_t" would be just as much over-specifying the type
> requirements as "uint8_t" does, while not giving the programmer or
> reader any useful additional information.

I disagree about this example, but I also don't want to get into "many".

I miss-edited my test and ended up with "In the vast number of cases..."
when I meant to say "In the vast majority of cases...".  I hope the word
vast made it clear that was not a quibble about numbers.  I worry that,
except when matching externally defined structures, the use of the
intN_t (and maybe even the uintN_t) types is almost always knee-jerk
programming.

You don't see them a lot (even now), but I don't recall seeing any code
that uses an intN_t type where int_leastN_t or int_fastN_t would not
have been better (excluding the struct-matching cases).  They are
mandatory and don't imply the need for a particular representation (no
padding and two's complement).

My experience of C code post C99 is rather limited so I am open to
persuasion here.

<cut>
>> In fact may programmers are, in effect, using the "least" types because
>> int really means int_least16_t and long means int_least32_t. 
>
> No, I would say "int" corresponds closer to "int_fast16_t", rather
> than "int_least16_t".

Yes, that's a closer match, though neither is exact.  It's possible
(though not likely) that int_fact16_t is 16 bits even when int is 32
bits, but int_least16_t is very likely to 16-bits in such cases as you
say:

> Almost every 32-bit processor also supports 16-bit types, meaning
> "int_least16_t" would have to be 16 bits - yet their "int" will
> generally be 32-bit.

-- 
Ben.

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Thread

Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help ManyBeers <markzuffi@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-08 11:34 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-08 11:56 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-08 20:19 +0100
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2022-09-08 12:34 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2022-09-08 20:38 -0600
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-09-09 03:22 -0700
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-09 13:30 +0000
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-09 09:16 -0700
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-09 19:06 +0000
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 11:58 +0200
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 11:37 +0100
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 13:05 +0200
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-10 14:42 +0000
            Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 16:10 +0100
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 18:14 +0200
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 12:54 +0100
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-10 16:22 +0200
            Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 19:03 +0100
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-10 19:30 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-10 19:47 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-11 14:07 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-11 16:12 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-11 17:58 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-11 21:14 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 20:01 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-11 23:32 -0400
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-12 13:52 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-14 03:24 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-14 08:10 -0400
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-12-26 06:09 -0800
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-12 16:53 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 16:48 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-12 17:46 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 20:37 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 00:03 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-13 12:31 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-13 12:48 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 14:18 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2022-09-13 17:13 +0300
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-13 16:50 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 18:47 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 03:16 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-13 20:15 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-13 20:29 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 22:22 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 14:37 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-13 23:16 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-13 22:16 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 16:15 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 16:15 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-14 10:58 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 15:36 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 21:53 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 05:55 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:10 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 07:54 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 18:32 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-14 18:39 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-15 01:12 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-15 09:11 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-15 08:07 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 18:40 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-14 05:45 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 12:11 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 09:57 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 03:09 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:29 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-14 15:14 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-14 07:36 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-10-03 01:10 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-10-03 11:36 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-10-04 02:13 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-10-04 16:27 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-13 11:48 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 10:38 +0200
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-14 14:27 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-14 07:58 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-16 13:06 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-16 13:16 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-12 17:55 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-12 18:22 +0000
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-12 20:41 +0100
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 15:45 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 15:41 -0700
                Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-12 17:06 +0200
              Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:46 -0700
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:57 -0700
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 07:07 -0700
        Neologism (Was: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-11 14:18 +0000
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-11 16:33 +0000
          Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-13 15:40 -0700
  Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-09 23:08 +0000
    Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-11 06:37 -0700
      Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-11 16:31 +0000
        Re: Beginner....Decimal/Octal converter help Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-13 15:44 -0700

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