Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.theory > #37380

Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ]

Show all headers | View raw

On 2021-07-30 16:43, olcott wrote:
> On 7/30/2021 5:13 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-07-30 15:53, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/30/2021 4:46 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2021-07-30 11:11, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/30/2021 12:06 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-07-30 07:46, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> int Simulate(u32 P, u32 I)
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    ((int(*)(int))P)(I);
>>>>>>>    return 1;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is this function called 'Simulate'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's nothing remotely resembling simulation going on there. The 
>>>>>> function is simply calling the function pointer that was passed to 
>>>>>> it. That's execution, not simulation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the simplest possible function that is computationally 
>>>>> equivalent to a simulation. Since every single instruction of the 
>>>>> entire x86utm operating system is simulated the name is also 
>>>>> literally true.
>>>>
>>>> Well, no, it isn't. The name 'simulator' suggests that this function 
>>>> performs simulation. From what you suggest above, 'simulator' is, 
>>>> itself, being simulated. That's something altogether different which 
>>>> makes the name incredibly misleading.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Then think of it as being named Big_Freds_Pizza(), the point is that 
>>> my code seems to defeat Rice.
>>>
>>> Didn't you make a claim that you could fool it?
>>>
>>>>>> Which raises all sorts of questions regarding your previous usage 
>>>>>> of the term 'simulate'. Does your 'simulating decider' actually 
>>>>>> involve simulation at all?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> André
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The x86utm operating system is based on an x86 emulator that has 
>>>>> decades of development.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't answer my question at all (and I don't know why you 
>>>> think anyone cares how many decades something has been under 
>>>> development).
>>>>
>>>> You consistently referred to your H as a 'simulating halt decider', 
>>>> but every time you present code snippets of H it shows H making a 
>>>> direct call to its input rather than invoking any kind of simulator.
>>>>
>>>> So is H actually the thing doing the simulation, or is H simply 
>>>> *being* simulated in much the same way as your so-called 'Simulate' 
>>>> function above is?
>>>>
>>>> André
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why can't you seem to stay focused on the key point at hand?
>>> Why do you diverge off on inconsequential trivialities?
>>
>> Because it *isn't* an inconsequential triviality. I'm trying to figure 
>> out the actual architecture of your system, and you are being 
>> deliberately unhelpful.
>>
>> Just because you don't understand why a particular question is being 
>> asked isn't a good reason to refuse to answer it. 
> 
> int Simulate(u32 P, u32 I)
> {
>    ((int(*)(int))P)(I);
>    return 1;
> }
> 
> // H and H2 are partial halt deciders
> u32 PSR_Decider(u32 P, u32 I)
> {
>    u32 Input_Halts1 = H((u32)P, (u32)I);
>    u32 Input_Halts2 = H2((u32)Simulate, (u32)P, (u32)I);
>    Output("Input_Halts1 = ", Input_Halts1);
>    Output("Input_Halts2 = ", Input_Halts2);
>    if (Input_Halts1 != Input_Halts2)
>      return 1;
>    return 0;
> }
> 
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>    if (H(x, x))
>      HERE: goto HERE;
> }
> 
> int main()
> {
>    Output("PSR_Decider = ", PSR_Decider((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
> 
> The point of this post is whether or not my PSR_Decider() is correct.
> The name that I choose for my functions is not related to that.

I'm not asking about the name. I'm asking whether your "simulating halt 
decider" H actually performs any simulation or whether it is simply 
being simulated as you claim that 'Simulate' above is.

And once again you've failed to answer. It's a simple straightforward 
question. It can be answered in a single short sentence. So why not 
simply answer it rather than coming up with excuses for not answering it?

>> I can guarantee you that if you ever present your work in a *real* 
>> academic environment, you will be asked all sorts of questions of 
>> which you might not immediately see the relevance, and you *will* be 
>> expected to answer them.
>>
>>> If you think that you can fool my Pathological self-reference(Olcott 
>>> 2004) decider go ahead any try this. If it is impossible to fool it 
>>> then that proves that it is correct.
>>
>> How can anyone possible answer this?
>>
>> You've apparently now got two different halt decider, H1 and H2. You 
>> haven't provided even the vaguest description of what these things do 
>> or how they differ from one another.
>>
> 
> So before you ever read what I say you first make sure to forget 
> everything else that we have discussed.
> 
> The P of int main(){ P(P); } reaches its final state.
> The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its final state.
> PSR_Decider() sees this difference.

So why are you using a different halt decider for each case? What's the 
different between H1 and H2? And why do you need Simulate at all? Why 
not just call H2(P, P) given that your 'simulate' is no more than a 
wrapper for a function call.

How is it that H2 *correctly* determines that P(P) does halt (or that 
Simulate(P, P) doesn't halt) whereas H1 incorrectly claims that P(P) 
doesn't halt? What's the difference between the criteria they are using?


> This difference only occurs when the input to the halt decider 
> contradicts whatever the halt decider decides. It picks out all of these 

But above that's not what you have. You have one halt decider (H1) 
contradicting some other halt decider (H2) (and on a different input) 
without providing any information about why these two deciders reach 
different conclusions.

André

> cases thus refutes Rice.
> 
>> You can't expect people to answer questions about code that you have 
>> not provided.
>>
>> André
>>
> 
> Try and do the same sort of trick that fools the halt decider to fool my 
> PSR_Decider(), you already claimed that you could do this didn't you?
> 


-- 
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail 
service.

Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 08:46 -0500
  Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 15:09 +0100
    Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 10:40 -0500
      Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 19:27 +0100
        Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 13:45 -0500
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 13:28 -0700
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 21:47 +0100
            Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:43 -0500
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2021-07-30 14:51 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:59 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 15:21 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:45 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-30 16:32 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:44 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 17:25 -0700
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-31 23:17 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-31 21:34 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-01 11:22 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-01 23:07 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-02 17:32 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 13:37 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 01:25 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 20:02 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 02:58 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 21:26 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-08-03 04:10 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 22:39 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:29 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-04 19:45 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:22 -0700
  Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 11:06 -0600
    Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 12:11 -0500
      Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 15:46 -0600
        Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:53 -0500
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 16:13 -0600
            Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:43 -0500
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:01 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:18 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:34 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 20:05 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 21:33 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 21:09 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 22:23 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 20:57 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-30 22:26 -0600

csiph-web