Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ]

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ]
Date	2021-08-03 02:58 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87im0n47cj.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <9M6dndrUNYbt8pr8nZ2dnUU7-f3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87v94n6c4z.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <GNidnWqU5NEappX8nZ2dnUU7-SvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgtz4bnj.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <hJmdnSSv8-wLCJX8nZ2dnUU7-T-dnZ2d@giganews.com>

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olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 8/2/2021 7:25 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 8/2/2021 11:32 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/1/2021 5:22 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>> 
>>>>>>> // Simplified Linz Ĥ (Linz:1990:319)
>>>>>>> // Strachey(1965) CPL translated to C
>>>>>>> void P(u32 x)
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>      if (H(x, x))
>>>>>>>        HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>      Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I call the above an HP counter example instance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't stop you.  Is the fact that a key part of the program is missing
>>>>>> what makes it an "HP counter example instance"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the rest of the world calls "HP instances" are actual programs
>>>>>> (plus any required input).  But as I've said, you are using words to
>>>>>> suggest things, poetically, in the reader's mind, not to communicate a
>>>>>> precise technical meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>> And (according to you) the technical name for this Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the cases
>>>>> that Ĥ gets wrong. That sure doesn't seem like a formal defintion to
>>>>> me.
>>>> It's not.  The formal definition of the case Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩.
>>>
>>> What is the name of the category where a TM/input pair: (X,Y) is
>>> undecidable for X? It seems to make the most sense to simply calls
>>> this an undecidable TM/input pair.
>> I can't stop you using words like this.  But if you want to write
>> clearly so that experts can understand you, you would need to learn what
>> the words you use mean to other people.
>> But part of me is happy for you keep misusing terms like this.  It makes
>> it obvious that you don't really know how to say what you mean, so naive
>> readers are less likely to be taken in.
>
> I asked you for a correction, simply ignoring this request is not an
> honest dialogue.

You asked me for the name of a category that is, at best, vague for me
because you described the category using technical words in a way that's
not usual.

My best guess for "undecidable TM/input pair for X" is "a halting
problem instance that X gets wrong".  I've given you this alternative
before, but you don't like it.  Maybe you just want a more emotive or
poetic term.  Shall we call them "spawn of the devil inputs for X"?

But step one is for you to read a book so you know what decidable means
(in this context).  Ideally, you will see from the book that the term is
not ideal, and you'll switch to talking about recursive sets.  Shall we
do that?  It might help.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 08:46 -0500
  Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 15:09 +0100
    Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 10:40 -0500
      Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 19:27 +0100
        Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 13:45 -0500
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 13:28 -0700
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 21:47 +0100
            Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:43 -0500
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2021-07-30 14:51 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:59 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 15:21 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:45 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-30 16:32 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:44 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 17:25 -0700
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-31 23:17 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-31 21:34 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-01 11:22 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-01 23:07 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-02 17:32 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 13:37 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 01:25 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 20:02 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 02:58 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 21:26 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-08-03 04:10 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 22:39 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:29 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-04 19:45 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:22 -0700
  Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 11:06 -0600
    Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 12:11 -0500
      Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 15:46 -0600
        Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:53 -0500
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 16:13 -0600
            Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:43 -0500
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:01 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:18 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:34 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 20:05 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 21:33 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 21:09 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 22:23 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 20:57 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-30 22:26 -0600

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