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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #29487

Re: Custom CPU Designs

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: Custom CPU Designs
Date 2020-04-17 18:15 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <r7ckn2$1pj$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <83042f0d-e68a-479d-bb67-d2d635ca60d4@googlegroups.com> <r7bnri$pf$1@dont-email.me> <mYemG.8363$V%3.1670@fx35.am4> <r7cbrf$26l$1@dont-email.me> <PZimG.97886$Kji.69961@fx15.am4>

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On 17/04/2020 16:23, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 17/04/20 14:44, David Brown wrote:
>> On 17/04/2020 11:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>> On 17/04/20 09:02, David Brown wrote:

>>> As you say, the XMOS /ecosystem/ is far more compelling,
>>> partly because it has excellent /integration/ between the
>>> hardware, the software and the toolchain. The latter two
>>> are usually missing.
>>
>> Agreed.  And the XMOS folk have learned and improved.  With the first 
>> chips, they proudly showed off that you could make a 100 MBit Ethernet 
>> controller in software on an XMOS chip.  Then it was pointed out to 
>> them that - impressive achievement though it was - it was basically 
>> useless because you didn't have the resources left to use it for much, 
>> and hardware Ethernet controllers were much cheaper.  So they brought 
>> out new XMOS chips with hardware Ethernet controllers.  The same thing 
>> happened with USB.
> 
> It looks like a USB controller needs ~8 cores, which isn't
> a problem on a 16 core device :)
> 

I've had another look, and I was mistaken - these devices only have the 
USB and Ethernet PHYs, not the MACs, and thus require a lot of processor 
power, pins, memory and other resources.  It doesn't need 8 cores, but 
the whole thing just seems so inefficient.  No one is going to spend the 
extra cost for an XMOS with a USB PHY, so why not put a hardware USB 
controller on the chip?  The silicon costs would surely be minor, and it 
would save a lot of development effort and release resources that are 
useful for other tasks.  The same goes for Ethernet.  Just because you 
/can/ make these things in software on the XMOS devices, does not make 
it a good idea.

Overall, the thing that bugs me about XMOS is that you can write very 
simple, elegant tasks for the cores to do various tasks.  But when you 
do that, you run out of cores almost immediately.  So you have to write 
your code in a way that implements your own scheduler, losing a major 
part of the point of the whole system.  Or you use the XMOS FreeRTOS 
port on one of the virtual cores - in which case you could just switch 
to a Cortex-M microcontroller with hardware USB, Ethernet, PWM, UART, 
etc. and a fraction of the price.

If the XMOS devices and software had a way of neatly multi-tasking 
/within/ a single virtual core, while keeping the same kind of 
inter-task communication and other benefits, then they would have 
something I could see being very nice.

> 
>> There is a lot to like about XMOS devices and tools, but they still 
>> strike me as a solution in search of a problem.  An elegant solution, 
>> perhaps, but still missing a problem.  We used them for a project many 
>> years ago for a USB Audio Class 2 device.  There simply were no 
>> realistic alternatives at the time, but I can't say the XMOS solution 
>> was a good one.  The device has far too little memory to make sensible 
>> buffers (this still applies to XMOS devices, last I looked), and the 
>> software at the time was painful (this I believe has improved 
>> significantly).  If we were making a new version of the product, we'd 
>> drop the XMOS device in an instant and use an off-the-shelf chip instead.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't want to comment on your use case.

As I said, it was a while ago, when XMOS were relatively new - I assume 
the software, libraries and examples are better now than at that time. 
But for applications like ours, you can just get a CMedia chip and wire 
it up - no matter how good XMOS tools have become, they don't beat that.

(And then all the development budget can be spent on trying to get 
drivers to work on idiotic Windows systems...)

> 
> To me a large part of the attraction is that you can
> /predict/ the /worst/ case latency and jitter (and hence
> throughput), in a way that is difficult in a standard MCU
> and easy in an FPGA.

For standard MCU's, you aim to do this by using hardware peripherals 
(timers, PWM blocks, communication controllers, etc.) for the most 
timing-critical stuff.  Then you don't need it in the software.

> 
> To that extent it allows FPGA-like performance with "traditional"
> software development tools and methodologies. Plus a little
> bit of "thinking parallel" that everybody will soon /have/ to
> be doing :)

It's a nice idea, and I'm sure XMOS has some good use-cases.  But I 
can't help feeling they have something that is /almost/ a good system - 
with a bit more, they could be very much more useful.

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Thread

Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-15 20:51 -0700
  Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 11:59 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-16 13:28 +0200
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 13:10 +0000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:16 +0100
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:01 +0000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 17:13 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 18:10 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:37 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:08 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 10:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 15:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 15:23 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 15:06 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:08 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:13 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:24 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:00 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-20 14:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 23:55 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:14 +0800
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:51 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 18:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:53 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 10:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-19 13:19 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 11:33 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:26 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:59 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:37 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:02 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:15 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 15:02 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:44 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:57 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 12:38 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:27 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:36 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 14:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 06:15 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:25 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 16:56 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 12:42 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:16 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:10 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 13:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 21:28 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-21 20:29 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-21 18:10 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 09:54 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 13:19 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 18:09 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:03 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:16 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 10:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 16:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:21 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 14:50 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:32 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:12 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 10:09 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:31 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:42 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-18 00:43 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 17:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:11 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 12:17 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 13:22 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 14:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 15:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 17:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 19:39 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 21:25 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-04-21 19:41 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-19 20:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 14:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-19 18:31 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 20:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 07:46 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 00:33 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 11:01 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 19:57 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:56 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 16:34 +0100
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-21 15:20 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 08:26 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:09 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:28 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:24 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:18 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 11:45 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-23 17:47 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-21 15:35 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Przemek Klosowski <przemek@tux.dot.org> - 2020-04-19 18:52 +0000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:42 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-20 22:59 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-21 10:23 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 03:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-22 09:26 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-22 22:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 14:18 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-23 22:35 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 18:16 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:06 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 20:17 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:28 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-04-23 04:59 -0400
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-20 17:27 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs pault.eg@googlemail.com - 2020-04-21 01:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 19:21 +0200
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:18 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 07:40 -0700
      Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 12:28 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 13:50 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 14:19 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:33 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 11:29 +1000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:42 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 12:35 +1000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 20:01 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 14:54 +1000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 23:54 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:38 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:13 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 18:02 +0200

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