Re: Custom CPU Designs

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Custom CPU Designs
Date	2020-04-17 10:02 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<r7bnri$pf$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <r79lfe$j7d$2@reader2.panix.com> <urB*mlJPx@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <r7akkb$i37$1@reader2.panix.com> <878sivdl56.fsf@nightsong.com> <83042f0d-e68a-479d-bb67-d2d635ca60d4@googlegroups.com>

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On 17/04/2020 03:37, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 8:13:45 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> Definitely. The M-class parts are so cheap, there's not much
>>> point in thinking about doing it in an FPGA.
>> 
>> Well I think the idea is already you have other stuff in the FPGA,
>> so you save a package and some communications by dropping in a
>> softcore rather than using an external MCU.  I'm surprised that
>> only high end FPGA's currently have hard MCU's already there.  Just
>> like they have DSP blocks, ram blocks, SERDES, etc., they might as
>> well put in some CPU blocks.
> 
> There's a chip that goes the other direction.  The GA144 has 144 very
> fast, very tiny CPUs in an FPGA fashion with no FPGA fabric.
> 
> It's not a popular chip because most people are invested in the
> single CPU, lots of memory paradigm and focusing their efforts on
> making a single CPU work like it's many CPUs doing many different
> things.  Using this chip requires a very different mindset because of
> the memory size limitations which are inherent in the CPU design.

Could it be that the chip is not popular because it is not a good fit 
for many applications?  A signal fast core is more flexible and useful 
than many small cores, while an FPGA can do far more than the tiny CPUs 
in the GA144.  You need outstanding benefits of something like the GA144 
before it makes sense to use it - and that's not something I have seen 
when I have looked through the website and read the information.  It is 
not enough to simply be an interesting idea - it is not even enough to 
be useful or better than alternatives.  In order to capture customers, 
it has to be so hugely better that it is worth the cost for people to 
learn a very different type of architecture, a very different 
programming language, and a very different way of looking at problems.

And frankly, the GA144 is not impressive or better at all.  Look at the 
application notes and examples - you've got a 10 Mbit Ethernet 
controller that requires a third of the hardware of the GA144.  An MD5 
hash takes over a tenth of the hardware and has a speed similar to a 
cheaper microcontroller from the year the GA144 was made, 2012.  And it 
all requires programming in a language where the /colour/ of the words 
is semantically and syntactically critical.

It is nice to see people coming up with new ideas and new kinds of 
architectures, but there has to be big benefits if it is going to be 
anything more than an academic curiosity.  GA144 is not it.

(The XMOS is far more realistic and with greater potential - that's a 
family of devices that people can, and do, use.)

> 
> That said, FPGA makers are rather stuck in the -larger is better- rut
> mostly because their bread and butter customer base, the comms
> vendors, want large FPGAs with fast ARM processors if any.

It is those customers that pay for the development of the whole thing. 
Small customers then get the benefits of that.

> 
> I recall a rather old Xilinx line, Virtex II Pro had Power PC CPUs I
> think.  Either two or only one or none in the smallest device.
> Pre-ARM days I guess.
> 

Yes, PPC cores used to be popular on FPGAs and ASICs.  MIPS were also 
popular in ASICs, especially in the communications and network industry, 
but I don't remember ever hearing about them on an FPGA.  I wonder why 
not - they would be at least as good a fit as PPC.

> Atmel had a line of not very well received FPGAs.  They had a version
> which incorporated an 8 bitter, possibly a AVR, but I don't think it
> was that.  Too long ago to remember.  It had a 4-5 letter acronym for
> a name.  SLIC or something like that.

I remember those, though I never used them.  Yes, you had an AVR core 
with an FPGA fabric.  I'm guessing there was a big customer that used 
them - a great deal of AVR devices, especially in their earlier days, 
came from Atmel's big ASIC customers.  They basically made parts to 
order, with the combination of core, memories, peripherals and packaging 
that a customer wanted for a mass production, and then they generalised 
some of the parts and made them available for public purchase.

> 
> ActelxxxxxMicrosemixxxxxxxxxMicrochip has some FPGAs with an ARM CPU.
> A bit pricey for me and they only come in large packages or very fine
> pitch BGAs.
>

Thread

Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-15 20:51 -0700
  Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 11:59 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-16 13:28 +0200
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 13:10 +0000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:16 +0100
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:01 +0000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 17:13 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 18:10 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:37 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:08 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 10:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 15:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 15:23 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 15:06 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:08 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:13 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:24 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:00 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-20 14:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 23:55 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:14 +0800
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:51 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 18:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:53 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 10:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-19 13:19 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 11:33 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:26 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:59 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:37 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:02 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:15 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 15:02 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:44 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:57 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 12:38 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:27 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:36 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 14:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 06:15 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:25 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 16:56 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 12:42 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:16 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:10 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 13:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 21:28 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-21 20:29 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-21 18:10 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 09:54 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 13:19 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 18:09 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:03 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:16 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 10:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 16:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:21 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 14:50 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:32 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:12 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 10:09 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:31 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:42 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-18 00:43 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 17:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:11 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 12:17 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 13:22 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 14:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 15:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 17:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 19:39 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 21:25 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-04-21 19:41 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-19 20:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 14:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-19 18:31 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 20:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 07:46 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 00:33 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 11:01 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 19:57 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:56 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 16:34 +0100
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-21 15:20 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 08:26 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:09 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:28 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:24 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:18 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 11:45 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-23 17:47 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-21 15:35 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Przemek Klosowski <przemek@tux.dot.org> - 2020-04-19 18:52 +0000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:42 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-20 22:59 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-21 10:23 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 03:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-22 09:26 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-22 22:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 14:18 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-23 22:35 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 18:16 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:06 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 20:17 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:28 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-04-23 04:59 -0400
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-20 17:27 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs pault.eg@googlemail.com - 2020-04-21 01:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 19:21 +0200
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:18 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 07:40 -0700
      Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 12:28 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 13:50 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 14:19 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:33 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 11:29 +1000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:42 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 12:35 +1000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 20:01 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 14:54 +1000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 23:54 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:38 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:13 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 18:02 +0200

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