Re: Custom CPU Designs

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Custom CPU Designs
Date	2020-04-17 15:44 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<r7cbrf$26l$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <r7akkb$i37$1@reader2.panix.com> <878sivdl56.fsf@nightsong.com> <83042f0d-e68a-479d-bb67-d2d635ca60d4@googlegroups.com> <r7bnri$pf$1@dont-email.me> <mYemG.8363$V%3.1670@fx35.am4>

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On 17/04/2020 11:49, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 17/04/20 09:02, David Brown wrote:
>> On 17/04/2020 03:37, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 8:13:45 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>>> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>> Definitely. The M-class parts are so cheap, there's not much
>>>>> point in thinking about doing it in an FPGA.
>>>>
>>>> Well I think the idea is already you have other stuff in the FPGA,
>>>> so you save a package and some communications by dropping in a
>>>> softcore rather than using an external MCU.  I'm surprised that
>>>> only high end FPGA's currently have hard MCU's already there.  Just
>>>> like they have DSP blocks, ram blocks, SERDES, etc., they might as
>>>> well put in some CPU blocks.
>>>
>>> There's a chip that goes the other direction.  The GA144 has 144 very
>>> fast, very tiny CPUs in an FPGA fashion with no FPGA fabric.
>>>
>>> It's not a popular chip because most people are invested in the
>>> single CPU, lots of memory paradigm and focusing their efforts on
>>> making a single CPU work like it's many CPUs doing many different
>>> things.  Using this chip requires a very different mindset because of
>>> the memory size limitations which are inherent in the CPU design.
>>
>> Could it be that the chip is not popular because it is not a good fit 
>> for many applications?  A signal fast core is more flexible and useful 
>> than many small cores, while an FPGA can do far more than the tiny 
>> CPUs in the GA144.  You need outstanding benefits of something like 
>> the GA144 before it makes sense to use it - and that's not something I 
>> have seen when I have looked through the website and read the 
>> information.  It is not enough to simply be an interesting idea - it 
>> is not even enough to be useful or better than alternatives.  In order 
>> to capture customers, it has to be so hugely better that it is worth 
>> the cost for people to learn a very different type of architecture, a 
>> very different programming language, and a very different way of 
>> looking at problems.
>>
>> And frankly, the GA144 is not impressive or better at all.  Look at 
>> the application notes and examples - you've got a 10 Mbit Ethernet 
>> controller that requires a third of the hardware of the GA144.  An MD5 
>> hash takes over a tenth of the hardware and has a speed similar to a 
>> cheaper microcontroller from the year the GA144 was made, 2012.  And 
>> it all requires programming in a language where the /colour/ of the 
>> words is semantically and syntactically critical.
>>
>> It is nice to see people coming up with new ideas and new kinds of 
>> architectures, but there has to be big benefits if it is going to be 
>> anything more than an academic curiosity.  GA144 is not it.
>>
>> (The XMOS is far more realistic and with greater potential - that's a 
>> family of devices that people can, and do, use.)
> 
> Yes indeed.
> 
> I was beguiled by the concept of the GA144, but felt the
> per-core limitations were too significant when compared
> with an FPGA or more conventional processor.
> 
> I was neither put off nor attracted by programming it in
> Forth. OTOH those that think Forth is the bees knees will
> gravitate to the GA144.

Perhaps Rick knows of people who have actually used the devices?

(While I have only programmed a little in Forth, and that was decades 
ago, I appreciate it is a language with a number of nice features.  But 
I expect Forth programmers to prefer modern Forth tools - writing the 
code in files using a good editor, laying it out well, picking good 
names, adding sensible comments, using static analysis, etc.  I can't 
see the appeal in a based on blocks designed to fit on floppy drives and 
screens that were outdated 30 years ago.)

> 
> As you say, the XMOS /ecosystem/ is far more compelling,
> partly because it has excellent /integration/ between the
> hardware, the software and the toolchain. The latter two
> are usually missing.

Agreed.  And the XMOS folk have learned and improved.  With the first 
chips, they proudly showed off that you could make a 100 MBit Ethernet 
controller in software on an XMOS chip.  Then it was pointed out to them 
that - impressive achievement though it was - it was basically useless 
because you didn't have the resources left to use it for much, and 
hardware Ethernet controllers were much cheaper.  So they brought out 
new XMOS chips with hardware Ethernet controllers.  The same thing 
happened with USB.

There is a lot to like about XMOS devices and tools, but they still 
strike me as a solution in search of a problem.  An elegant solution, 
perhaps, but still missing a problem.  We used them for a project many 
years ago for a USB Audio Class 2 device.  There simply were no 
realistic alternatives at the time, but I can't say the XMOS solution 
was a good one.  The device has far too little memory to make sensible 
buffers (this still applies to XMOS devices, last I looked), and the 
software at the time was painful (this I believe has improved 
significantly).  If we were making a new version of the product, we'd 
drop the XMOS device in an instant and use an off-the-shelf chip instead.

Thread

Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-15 20:51 -0700
  Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 11:59 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-16 13:28 +0200
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 13:10 +0000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:16 +0100
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:01 +0000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 17:13 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 18:10 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:37 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-16 22:08 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 10:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 15:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 15:23 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:49 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 15:06 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:08 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:13 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:24 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:00 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-20 14:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 23:55 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:14 +0800
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-18 16:51 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 18:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:53 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 10:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-19 13:19 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 11:33 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:26 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:59 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:37 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:02 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-19 22:15 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 15:02 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:44 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 14:57 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 12:38 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 15:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:27 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:36 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 14:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 06:15 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:25 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 16:56 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 12:42 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:16 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:10 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 13:09 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-18 21:28 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-21 20:29 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-21 18:10 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 09:54 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 13:19 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-22 18:09 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:03 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:16 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 10:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 16:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 14:21 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-18 14:50 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:32 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:12 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 10:09 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:31 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 16:42 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-04-18 00:43 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-18 17:07 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:11 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 12:17 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 13:22 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-17 14:48 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 15:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 16:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 17:03 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 19:39 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 21:25 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 18:27 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-04-21 19:41 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-19 20:53 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 14:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 02:11 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-04-19 18:31 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 20:32 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 07:46 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 00:33 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-04-20 11:01 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:44 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 19:57 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:02 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 14:56 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 16:34 +0100
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:57 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-21 15:20 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 08:26 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:09 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 15:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 11:28 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 08:24 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-22 20:18 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 11:45 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-23 17:47 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-21 15:35 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Przemek Klosowski <przemek@tux.dot.org> - 2020-04-19 18:52 +0000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 13:42 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-20 22:59 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-20 17:01 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-21 10:23 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-21 03:47 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-22 09:26 +1000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-22 22:06 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 14:18 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-23 22:35 +0100
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 18:20 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 18:16 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:06 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-04-22 20:17 +0300
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-04-22 17:28 +0000
                Re: Custom CPU Designs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-04-23 04:59 -0400
                Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-20 17:27 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 17:58 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs pault.eg@googlemail.com - 2020-04-21 01:00 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-21 19:21 +0200
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-17 17:18 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 07:40 -0700
      Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 12:28 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 13:50 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2020-04-16 14:19 -0700
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-04-16 22:33 +0100
    Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 11:29 +1000
      Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 18:42 -0700
        Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 12:35 +1000
          Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 20:01 -0700
            Re: Custom CPU Designs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2020-04-17 14:54 +1000
              Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-16 23:54 -0700
              Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-17 10:38 +0200
                Re: Custom CPU Designs Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-04-17 09:13 -0700
                Re: Custom CPU Designs David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-20 18:02 +0200

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