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Re: Help needed

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On 4/4/20 12:58 AM, Ned Latham wrote:
> James Kuyper wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
...
>>> Exception throwing: once an option, now the default.
>>> "namespace":        once an option, now a requirement.
>>
>> Could you identify the specific changes in the text of the standard that
>> you're referring to, and when they happened?
> 
> No. I don't geek around with committee standards. The only C++ standard
> that I know is Stroustrup's: "Programming in C++", vol 3, 1997.
> 
> Exception throwing was optional back then, which suits me fine, because
> one of my projects is a library, and that is no place for exceptions
> (frankly, I think they encourage sloppy programming, and I eschew them
> at all times, not just in libraries). At some point, which I haven't
> reached yet, it became the default. When I reach that point, I'll be
> dropping back to the previous compiler.
> 
> Namespace wasn't on the curriculum when I started learning C++.
> I don't know when it was introduced, but in his book (vol 3) Stroustrup
> seems to imply that it's a new thing. He discusses, for example,
> "transitioning" to it. Now, it seems, its use is compulsory.
> 
> I will not tolerate that either.

What's with you? I only asked for a simple explanation for an obscure
comment.
OK, so you've made it clear that you're complaining about something you
know little about. That's fine - I'd feared that you were describing
some recent changes to the language that I hadn't noticed
(Unfortunately, for me, "recent" could include changes dating as far
back to C++2017).

Throwing exceptions and declaring namespaces remains optional, and are
not the default. Your function will throw exceptions only if it
explicitly uses throw(), or if it calls a subroutine that uses throw()
outside of a try-block - that's the same as it has always been.

Everything in the C++ standard library that can be declared inside a
namespace is so declared, and many routines in the standard library do
throw exceptions. Both of those statements have been true since shortly
after those features were added to the language. However, your own code
doesn't have to throw exceptions, use namespaces, or use the C++
standard library.

...
> I'd rather put that learning curve into designing and implementing
> a well-thought-out language.

Then I would recommend not bothering to monitor a newsgroup devoted to a
language that you hate.

...
>>> the defective post-increment semenatic of C++.
>>
>> Could you identify what you consider to be defective about C++'s
>> post-increment semantic?
> 
> It doesn't work with non-native types.

It works with any user-defined type that defines an operator overload
for that operator, or can be implicitly converted to a type for which
it's permitted.

> Post-decrement too, of course.

That's not "of course" - the fact that you explicitly specified
"post-increment" implies that your complaint is specifically about that
operator. Based upon the reason you've given, I'm surprised that you're
not complaining equally strongly about all of the other arithmetic
operators. You can't apply any of the following operators to a
user-defined type: + - ! ^= &= <= >= [] * < |= && / > << || % += >> ^ -=
>>= -- & *= <<= | /= == ->* ~ %= !=

Unless, of course, an applicable operator overload is defined or there's
conversion operators or conversion constructors defined that will
convert a value of that type to a different type for which those
operators are permitted.

Note: in that list, "&" refers to the binary operator - unary & can, of
course, be applied to any object of any type.

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Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 09:56 -0700
  Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-03 18:18 +0100
    Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 12:57 -0500
      Re: Help needed Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2020-04-03 18:17 +0000
        Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 16:41 -0500
      Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 14:58 -0400
        Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 16:45 -0500
          Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 17:52 -0500
      Re: Help needed Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-03 20:05 +0000
        Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 16:58 -0500
          Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 17:50 -0500
          Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 00:15 -0400
            Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 23:58 -0500
              Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-04 18:06 +1300
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 00:35 -0500
                Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-04 19:54 +1300
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 02:22 -0500
                Re: Help needed Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2020-04-04 10:33 +0200
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 04:55 -0500
                Re: Help needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 13:02 +0200
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 07:15 -0500
                Re: Help needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 16:49 +0200
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:10 -0500
                Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-05 16:31 +0100
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 11:37 -0500
                Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 14:19 +0200
                Re: Help needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 16:57 +0200
                Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 10:51 -0400
                Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 10:44 -0400
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:06 -0500
                Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-05 11:04 -0400
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 11:31 -0500
                Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-05 16:59 -0400
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 21:38 -0500
              Re: Help needed "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:51 +0200
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 08:33 -0500
                Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-05 07:35 +1200
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:19 -0500
                Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-05 11:27 -0400
                Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 22:27 -0400
                Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-04 14:50 +0100
              Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 10:27 -0400
                Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-05 07:37 +1200
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 03:45 -0500
          Re: Help needed Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-04-04 09:02 +0300
            Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 01:20 -0500
              Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-04 19:43 +1300
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 02:10 -0500
                Re: Help needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 01:58 -0700
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 05:04 -0500
                Re: Help needed Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-04-04 14:37 +0300
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 07:25 -0500
                Re: Help needed Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-04-04 17:39 +0300
                Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:02 -0500
  Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 19:35 +0200
    Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 20:01 +0200
      Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 16:16 +0200
        Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 18:58 +0200
    Re: Help needed Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2020-04-03 22:01 +0200
      Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-03 21:05 +0100
        Re: Help needed Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2020-04-04 02:10 +0200
      Re: Help needed Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-04 08:19 +0000
      Re: Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:56 -0700
    Re: Help needed Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-04 01:14 +0100
    Re: Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:49 -0700
  Re: Help needed Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2020-04-04 16:30 -0400
    Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-05 05:58 +0100
    Re: Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 03:21 -0700
      Re: Help needed Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2020-04-07 06:33 +0000
        Re: Help needed Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-07 10:39 +0000

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