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Groups > comp.lang.c > #150990

Re: C String terminator

From James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C String terminator
Date 2020-04-03 14:48 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <r680ee$kdr$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (17 earlier) <86a73tpb20.fsf@linuxsc.com> <r66pnf$g1k$1@dont-email.me> <2a770f28-0124-4b7e-8da3-24c05dd75636@googlegroups.com> <f08c4997-fc32-4958-a23b-13e15ca93410@googlegroups.com> <87wo6wqxs5.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>

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On 4/3/20 1:33 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
> [...]
>> It is a kind of theological nonsense discussion, I agree. So I make a 
>> few pertinent points. 
>>
>> Characters are passed about as ints in standard C, partly so that EOF can 
>> be encoded as -1, enabling all 8 bits of a char to be used for data encoding.

EOF is allowed, but not required, to be -1. Characters are allowed, but
not required, to have only 8 bits. An implementation of C could have
INT_MIN == CHAR_MIN, in which case your argument wouldn't apply - but
that wouldn't prevent such an implementation from fully conforming to
the standard.

>> "char" is still the ASCII character type, and the term "character" can be

The encoding need not be ASCII, and even systems where it is a variant
ASCII rather than ASCII itself are increasingly rare - UTF-8 is the most
common, but EBCDIC hasn't entirely disappeared yet, either.
>> used in several senses, one of which is the full word for "char". Hence

It would be stupid to do that in any context where you want to be
understood as referring specifically to "char", because you're likely to
be misunderstood as referring generically to any member of the set of
character types.

>> "array of character type", meaning "array of chars or derived types".

No, "character type" includes to "char", "signed char", or "unsigned
char", each of which is a distinct type, none of them are derived from
either of the other two.

> What do you mean by "derived types"?  In the C standard, that phrase
> refers specifically to array, structure, union, function, pointer, and
> atomic types.  signed char and unsigned char, in particular, are not
> derived types.

Shall we add "Malcolm-derived type" to the list?

>> Of course the term "character" can also mean "8 bit value or EOF" as in 
>> "the function fgetc extracts a character from the file". It can also
>> mean "a glyph", thus not a space, or it can mean "not a control
>> code", or "any 8 bit value except zero". It all depends on context and
>> to try to read anything more into the standard is a bit like the school 
>> of Biblical interpretation that puts great weight on the difference between 
>> "the first day" and "day one".

No one can know for certain what the original author meant when writing
those phrases - he's long dead, and the earliest suriving commentaries
were written long after he died. We can know what the committee meant -
they're still alive and available for comment, and the committee
occasionally issues official decisions about the meaning of the standard.

It's a serious mistake to interpret what the standard says about
characters using any definition of "character" other than one the two+
(3.7p1, 3.7.1p1) provided in the standard (any context where it makes a
difference which of the two applies, and is not clear from context,
constitutes a defect in the standard - such a situation would not
justify using your own preferred definition for the term). Similarly,
the standard defines many terms that include the word "character" (such
as "multibyte character" or "source character set" or "decimal-point
character"),  and it's a serious mistake to use any definitions for any
of those terms other than the ones provided by the standard, when
interpreting what the standard means. That's the reason the standard
provides such definitions.

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Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 02:25 -0800
  Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-02-16 14:24 -0800
    Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:13 -0800
      Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-02-22 09:05 -0800
        Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-27 19:58 -0700
          Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-03-27 23:26 -0700
            Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 09:21 -0700
              Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 09:54 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 11:17 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 13:12 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 13:28 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 19:17 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-03 09:47 +0200
                Re: C String terminator already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2020-04-03 08:03 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-03 17:34 +0200
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 12:39 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-04-03 18:05 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 10:18 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-03 22:13 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 14:36 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 16:18 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 01:43 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 18:23 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 11:18 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:02 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-05 21:54 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 13:59 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-06 09:07 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 02:25 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-06 11:43 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 03:56 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-06 16:34 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 10:30 -0700
                Re: C String terminator richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2020-04-06 17:50 +0000
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 11:31 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 12:04 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-06 21:51 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 14:34 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 14:39 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 14:52 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 15:31 -0700
                Re: C String terminator jameskuyper@stellarscience.com - 2020-04-06 16:05 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 03:08 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-04-06 21:12 -0600
                Re: C String terminator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-07 16:55 +0000
                Re: C String terminator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-04-07 11:05 -0600
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-07 20:39 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 11:48 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-04-07 21:21 -0600
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-07 20:40 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 01:41 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 07:40 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 08:16 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 09:17 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 09:46 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 10:37 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 10:48 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-08 14:07 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 11:29 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 16:46 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 01:57 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-09 08:42 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 08:56 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-09 12:42 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 10:12 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-09 15:51 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 13:02 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-09 13:06 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 14:49 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-09 19:05 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-10 02:25 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-10 04:38 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-10 05:21 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-10 07:13 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-10 11:38 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-04-11 17:38 +0000
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-11 15:04 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-11 15:16 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-11 21:45 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-12 04:39 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-12 21:34 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-12 14:38 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-13 11:13 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-13 08:24 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-11 15:08 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-09 09:53 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-07 14:35 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-06 21:04 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 01:16 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 02:08 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 02:19 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 08:42 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 10:39 -0700
                Re: C String terminator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-07 17:45 +0000
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-07 14:40 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 11:03 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 11:14 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 12:19 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 12:02 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-07 06:27 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 07:44 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-07 08:30 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 00:27 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 12:50 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 05:25 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 23:52 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 03:15 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-08 21:28 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 15:40 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-09 00:31 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-04-07 21:40 +0000
                Re: C String terminator luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 09:41 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 12:46 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-04-07 17:17 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-04 22:32 +0100
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-03 21:59 +0200
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 23:48 -0400
                Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2020-04-04 09:00 +0000
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 02:45 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-04 10:24 +0000
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 03:55 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:27 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:52 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 14:12 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 15:12 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 15:03 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-04 18:46 -0400
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 01:53 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:33 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 06:43 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 19:48 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 06:37 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 18:36 +0200
                Re: C String terminator dave_thompson_2@comcast.net - 2020-05-02 15:13 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 09:41 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 10:33 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 11:14 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 11:34 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 14:48 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 12:10 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 13:24 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 23:59 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-03 22:05 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 20:34 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:05 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-09 07:35 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 07:38 -0700

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