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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #69708

Re: two's complement idea

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: two's complement idea
Date 2019-11-10 21:31 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <qq9s31$cbd$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <9bec0170-dcbe-4ec3-8c4f-c3bec03e865e@googlegroups.com> <qq8v49$ncg$1@dont-email.me> <qq93qu$ka8$1@dont-email.me> <qq9cli$9ee$1@dont-email.me> <qq9hmi$8kt$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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On 10/11/2019 18:34, Manfred wrote:
> On 11/10/19 5:08 PM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 10/11/2019 14:37, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
>>> On 10.11.2019 13:17, David Brown wrote:
>>>> [snip]
> 
>>
>>>
>>> IMO the fast and the compliant floating point types should at least 
>>> by default be differently named types, not the same type with 
>>> different behavior depending on an option.
>>
>> The compiler does require an explicit option here for non-IEEE 
>> operations - it is (baring bugs or missing features - I don't know the 
>> details) IEEE standard by default.
>>
>> There is always a balance on these things.  "-ffast-math" can be very 
>> much faster than IEEE standard behaviour on many platforms, and is 
>> perfectly acceptable for most people's use of floating point.  Why 
>> should the majority have slower code (and perhaps worse accuracy) just 
>> because some few scientific users need identical results consistent 
>> across platforms?
> 
> It's not that simple (and -ffast-math does not improve accuracy), see 
> below.
> 
>>
>> I'd actually say my preferred solution is that strict IEEE types 
>> should be a different, specific types that programmers can pick 
>> explicitly, while "-ffast-math" equivalent could be the default.
> 
> The fact is that -ffast-math can cause loss of precision, so it can 
> introduce nasty bugs in existing code that assumes IEEE conformance.

-ffast-math /can/ cause loss of precision, but it can also improve 
precision.  If you write "(x + 1e50) - 1e50", -ffast-math will let the 
compiler generate code for "x" while IEEE conformance requires the 
addition and subtraction, losing you all your precision of x (assuming x 
is small compared to 1e50).  The key point is that it doesn't keep the 
consistency required by IEEE.

And of course if you have code that assumes IEEE conformance and needs 
it for correctness, and you turn off conformance, then you risk a result 
that doesn't work.  You can't use -ffast-math unless you know the code 
doesn't need IEEE conformance.

So it /is/ that simple, and that obvious.

And while I say this is /my/ preferred solution, I can quite happily 
appreciate that other people prefer something else.  (And realistically, 
I know it takes a huge incentive before the status quo is changed.  Even 
if it turns out, as I think is the case, that most programs would run 
correctly and more efficiently with -ffast-math, that does not mean the 
default is likely to change.)

> Since managing accuracy errors is among the most common causes of 
> floating point bugs, the majority of programmers is better off without 
> -ffast-math.

I don't think most programs care unduly about the accuracy of floating 
point calculations.  I think most calculations in floating point have 
low enough accuracy needs that you can use doubles and accept that the 
answer is approximate but good enough.  And I think most programmers are 
totally unaware of the details of IEEE and how to use the features it 
gives in getting slightly more control of error margins.  But I freely 
admit that is gut feeling, not based on any kind of surveys, statistics, 
etc.

> If you want the extra speed, you need to know what you are doing (and 
> that it doesn't come for free) so you'd better ask for it explicitly.

It can make a very large difference, depending on the target processor 
and the type of code.  (Many small processors with floating point 
hardware have hardware that supports "ordinary" floats, but does not 
handle infinities, NaNs, infinitesimals, etc.  -ffast-math can generated 
code that runs in a few hardware instructions while without it you need 
library calls and hundreds of instructions.  Yes, it can be /that/ big a 
difference - and that is personal experience, not gut feeling.)

> By the way, with floating point there are a number of techniques to be 
> considered that improve efficiency before tweaking compiler flags.

Of course.

> 
> 
>    The
>> "numeric_limits" could differentiate between the representation and 
>> the operations (the same should apply to signed integers, 
>> differentiating between representation and wrapping overflow 
>> behaviour), and implementations should set the values here according 
>> to what they guarantee regardless of flags.
>>
>>>
>>> So I regard it as a quite nasty design bug.
>>>
>>
>> "Bug" implies a mistake.  This is a design choice, on which people 
>> disagree - not a bug.
>

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Thread

two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-04 20:48 +0100
  Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-04 21:19 +0100
    Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-04 14:39 -0800
      Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 10:31 +0100
        Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 11:23 +0100
          Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 15:43 +0100
            Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 16:58 +0100
              Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-05 21:45 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-06 13:33 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 13:51 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 14:37 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-06 15:38 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 15:53 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-06 10:06 -0500
                Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 17:00 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-06 17:47 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 17:54 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2019-11-06 20:00 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 20:13 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 20:44 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 20:36 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-06 22:54 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-07 00:52 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-06 17:54 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-06 18:15 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 18:33 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-06 10:55 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 20:15 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-06 20:53 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-06 22:25 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-06 23:05 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-07 10:23 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 22:20 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-06 22:12 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-09 06:24 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-11-09 07:14 -0700
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-10 11:52 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-10 16:31 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2019-11-10 19:02 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-11 12:08 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-11-11 13:59 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-11-11 17:09 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-11-18 07:40 -0500
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 12:27 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea cdalten@gmail.com - 2020-01-24 05:39 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-24 17:53 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-24 17:31 +0000
              Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 21:48 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 07:08 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 09:30 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 09:57 +0100
        Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-05 09:02 -0800
          Re: two's complement idea scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-11-05 17:15 +0000
            Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-05 10:19 -0800
          Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2019-11-05 19:31 +0100
            Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-05 11:55 -0800
              Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-11-05 22:48 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-05 15:49 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-09 06:13 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2019-11-10 18:37 +0100
            Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 23:14 +0100
          Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 23:00 +0100
            Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-06 05:26 -0800
              Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 21:50 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-08 02:01 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-08 14:03 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-08 12:08 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-10 13:17 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-11-10 14:37 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-10 17:08 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2019-11-10 18:34 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-11 07:48 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-10 21:31 +0100
  Re: two's complement idea Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2019-11-04 23:55 +0100
    Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 10:32 +0100
  Re: two's complement idea Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-11-04 19:55 -0700
    Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:52 +0100
      Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-05 18:17 +1300
      Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-09 05:55 -0800
        Re: two's complement idea Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-11-09 06:33 -0700
          Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-09 07:46 -0800
        Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-09 06:46 -0800
          Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 12:19 -0800
            Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 00:14 +0100
              Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 09:15 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2019-11-29 10:58 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 12:49 +0100
              Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-12-07 07:53 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-07 08:22 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 20:44 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-10 23:44 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-14 07:08 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-14 08:42 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-21 02:09 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-21 05:14 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2020-01-21 13:08 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-22 00:07 -0500
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-21 23:21 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-01-22 01:51 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-22 11:28 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-01-22 11:52 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-22 04:47 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 07:19 -0700
                Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: two's complement idea boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-21 16:44 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-21 20:01 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-22 11:26 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2020-01-22 20:04 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-01-22 11:30 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2020-01-22 19:57 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-23 10:03 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-23 09:24 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-24 07:29 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-23 10:03 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> - 2020-01-23 10:09 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-23 09:29 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-24 01:08 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-24 12:27 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-24 01:06 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2020-01-24 10:07 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-24 11:36 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-24 17:34 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-24 17:57 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-24 12:19 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2020-01-24 14:19 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-24 14:11 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-24 17:26 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-24 17:35 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-24 22:27 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-24 23:21 -0500
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-25 11:06 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-24 22:12 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-24 23:24 -0500
                Re: two's complement idea Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-25 09:04 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-25 04:15 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-25 19:55 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-25 00:05 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-25 01:19 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-25 19:50 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-25 11:57 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2020-01-25 13:42 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-25 14:58 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-26 07:58 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-25 20:34 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-25 12:41 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-26 16:08 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-27 02:20 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-27 15:03 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-15 06:44 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-03-06 10:18 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 07:05 -0700
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-04-02 20:03 +0300
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 12:37 -0700
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-26 07:45 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-25 19:56 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-26 09:49 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-25 21:33 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-26 11:00 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-25 22:23 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-26 11:46 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-26 10:55 +0200
                Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-26 03:47 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-27 01:28 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-25 22:22 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-25 18:24 -0500
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-26 12:54 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-26 12:44 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-26 14:58 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-26 14:53 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-26 19:10 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-26 13:20 -0600
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-26 20:51 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-26 21:02 -0600
                Re: two's complement idea Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-01-26 19:06 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-27 18:50 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-27 14:18 -0600
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-27 22:13 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-01-27 21:38 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-27 19:37 -0600
                Re: two's complement idea Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-01-27 19:15 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> - 2020-01-28 11:45 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-27 16:31 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-01-26 18:50 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-26 18:57 +0000
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-26 20:46 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-26 13:14 -0600
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-26 22:15 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-27 21:06 -0600
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-28 13:08 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-27 01:50 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-27 08:21 +1300
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-25 20:14 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-25 20:12 +0100
                Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-27 07:48 -0800
                Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-02-18 18:46 +0100
        Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 17:03 +0100
    Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 06:56 +0100
      Re: two's complement idea Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2019-11-05 08:24 +0100
        Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 08:35 +0100
        Re: two's complement idea Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-04 23:36 -0800
          Re: two's complement idea James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-11-05 09:19 -0500
  Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-01-22 08:32 +0100
    Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2020-01-22 09:23 +0100
      Re: two's complement idea Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-01-22 14:20 +0100
        Re: two's complement idea Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2020-01-22 13:37 +0000
      Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-27 01:17 -0800
        Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2020-01-27 12:35 +0100
          Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-15 05:56 -0800
            Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2020-02-16 09:17 +0100
              Re: two's complement idea Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-02-21 19:35 -0500
                Re: two's complement idea "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2020-02-22 07:01 +0100
              Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-24 08:22 -0800
      Re: two's complement idea cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2020-02-24 03:12 +0000
        Re: two's complement idea cdalten@gmail.com - 2020-02-24 05:53 -0800
        Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-25 07:56 -0800
          Re: two's complement idea cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2020-02-25 22:00 +0000
            Re: two's complement idea Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-25 16:14 -0800
              Re: two's complement idea cdalten@gmail.com - 2020-02-25 18:18 -0800
              Re: two's complement idea cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2020-02-26 02:22 +0000

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