Re: freshly installed SW not found

From	William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca>
Newsgroups	alt.os.linux
Subject	Re: freshly installed SW not found
Date	2019-02-28 18:32 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<q599fd$nm9$3@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <q56c4p$25f$2@dont-email.me> <slrnq7dd48.3t0.dan@djph.net> <q56pf6$1l5$1@dont-email.me> <q56rag$bd9$3@dont-email.me> <q58ho5$62k$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2019-02-28, Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> wrote:
> On 27/02/19 21:18, William Unruh wrote:
>> On 2019-02-27, Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> wrote:
>>> On 27/02/19 17:02, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA256
>>>>
>>>> Soviet_Mario wrote:
>>>>> On 27/02/19 13:44, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:52:04 +0100, Soviet_Mario scribbled:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26/02/19 22:46, William Unruh wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something like rsnapshot (using rsync) will store about 30 backups of
>>>>>>>> 200GB of data in half a TB. (it does differential backups so only files
>>>>>>>> which changed get backed up).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not tarring or compressing means that the backup data is easy to get at
>>>>>>>> which is usually what you want.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I call this inode space pollution, a thing that I don't find desirable
>>>>>>> on the backup target (even if I have to accept it in the userspace).
>>>>>>> It slows down searches, takes up space in itself just to store a huge
>>>>>>> number of inodes :\
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rsnapshot uses hard-linking for files that haven't changed since the last
>>>>>> backup.  Hard links don't use up any inodes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> mmm, then I must have chosen the wrong terms.
>>>>> But some other kind of disk space must be used to add a link
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> so the link information is stored where ?
>>> I'm not saying the content need to be stored, but the link
>>> to it for sure : in as many places as there are the links
>> 
>> In the directory entry for that file. The directory entry contains the
>> inode. That file simply points to that inode. That it is the same inode
>> that some other entry points to as well, well,that is what a hard link
>> means (in the inode structure is a number which says how many directory
>> entries point to it.
>> 
>>>
>>> This does not duplicate the info of Inode (Aragorns taught),
>>> but then the link is a reference to be dereferenced. So when
>> 
>> That is a soft link. Here you just have an ordinary directory entry
>> which points to  the intial inode.
>
> No you have as many ordinary directory entries as the number 
> of hardlinks, which is what I refer to as name pollution.

Yes. In different directories.
>
> It's a situation somewhat similar (a metaphore obv.) to 
> enclosing names in a program in namespaces to avoid global 
> name space pollution (in the example an archive hides the 
> names inside it and result in a single entry)

No idea what this analogy is supposed to be sorry.

>
> Let me precise I'm not absolutely saying it is faster to 
> lookup for a name inside it instead of a regular entry !
> I'm just saying that wide range operations (such as getting 
> the disk usage maps and enumerating trees elements like 
> folders) are.

Nope. 

>
> Also copying / moving whole large top level branch becomes 
> faster as (apart from reduced compressed size) the number of 
> files is shrinked.

Nope. You just move the large top level branch. and if you have an
intelligent move operation, like rsync -H it moves every inode only
once. If you have a stupid one, like mv, then it will dereference the
hard links and move them (across filesystem boundaries that is)
separately. On the same filesystem all mv does is change the directory
entries of the top level of the branch.


>
> If one looks for a single file and knows where it is in 
> advance, the regular hardlink style is faster

And if one does the looking is an intelligent way (eg lists the inode
entries of those with multiple hard links) one only needs to read each
inode once. 



>
>> 
>>> the file manager scans the disk, re-read the same inode many
>>> times or at best looks-up some hash table to find whether or
>>> not the info is just present. Reading an inode entry is fast.
>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to somewhere. And this huge list of items (be them inode or
>>>>> else) really slows down directory listing and scan, for
>>>>> example when I perform searches or get properties (counts,
>>>>> stats etc)
>>>>
>>>> Which'll be as equally slow, if not slower, when you try doing it on a
>>>> tarball.
>>>
>>> If one has just a huge one, for sure. That's why I wanted
>>> tarbal:folder=1:1
>> 
>> NO. You have to uncompress the tarball, then search through the huge
>
> it's not so huge. But yes, in case I search for a particular 
> item it is slower, I didn't mean that

Sorry, up above you were complaining about the hard links being slower
and not you do not meanthat? What do you mean?

>
>> contents of that tarball to find the entry you want. That is slow. Very
>> slow.
>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> =KZ0n
>>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

Thread

freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-26 19:47 +0100
  Re: freshly installed SW not found "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2019-02-26 20:28 +0100
    Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-26 21:51 +0100
      Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-26 21:46 +0000
        Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-27 12:52 +0100
          Re: freshly installed SW not found Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2019-02-27 12:44 +0000
            Re: freshly installed SW not found Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-02-27 13:27 +0000
            Re: freshly installed SW not found Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-02-27 15:16 +0000
            Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-27 16:59 +0100
              Re: freshly installed SW not found Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-02-27 16:02 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-27 20:46 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-27 20:18 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-28 12:47 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-28 18:32 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-03-01 01:14 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-01 01:54 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2019-03-01 03:09 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2019-02-27 20:21 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-27 23:02 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-02-27 23:24 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2019-02-28 04:46 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-02-28 10:59 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-28 18:51 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-28 18:24 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-03-01 13:49 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-01 18:22 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2019-03-01 19:06 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-03-03 01:08 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2019-03-03 00:14 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-03-03 13:00 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-03-03 12:46 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-28 18:15 +0000
              Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-27 16:38 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-27 20:51 +0100
              Re: freshly installed SW not found Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2019-02-28 04:39 +0000
        Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-02-27 14:30 +0100
      Re: freshly installed SW not found "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2019-02-27 07:05 +0100
      Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-02-27 14:29 +0100
        Re: freshly installed SW not found Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2019-02-27 08:50 -0500
          Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-02-28 00:05 +0100
        Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-27 16:56 +0100
        Re: freshly installed SW not found Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2019-03-01 14:58 +0000
      Re: freshly installed SW not found Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2019-03-01 15:04 +0000
        Re: freshly installed SW not found "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-03-01 10:50 -0500
          Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-03-01 18:40 +0000
            Re: freshly installed SW not found "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-03-01 14:40 -0500
              Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-03-01 23:38 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-03-01 19:09 -0500
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-03-02 03:47 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-03-01 22:55 -0500
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-03-02 07:08 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-02 11:27 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2019-03-02 04:10 -0500
                Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-03-02 16:29 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2019-03-02 11:54 -0500
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-02 11:24 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2019-03-02 00:28 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-02 11:31 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2019-03-02 11:31 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-03-02 11:34 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2019-03-02 11:48 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-03-02 12:15 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-02 23:15 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2019-03-03 00:33 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-03-03 01:38 +0100
                Compressed filesystems [Was: Re: freshly installed SW not found] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-03 13:11 +0100
                Re: Compressed filesystems [Was: Re: freshly installed SW not found] Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-03-03 19:49 +0100
                Re: Compressed filesystems [Was: Re: freshly installed SW not found] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-03 21:17 +0100
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-03-03 12:49 +0000
                Re: freshly installed SW not found Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-03-03 12:35 +0000
            Re: freshly installed SW not found "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-03-02 11:22 +0100
  Re: freshly installed SW not found Wildman <best_lay@yahoo.com> - 2019-02-26 13:31 -0600
    Re: freshly installed SW not found Wildman <best_lay@yahoo.com> - 2019-02-26 15:42 -0600
      Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-26 21:51 +0000
  Re: freshly installed SW not found "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-02-26 14:36 -0500
    Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-26 21:58 +0100
      Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-26 21:49 +0000
        Re: freshly installed SW not found Soviet_Mario <SovietMario@CCCP.MIR> - 2019-02-27 12:54 +0100
  Re: freshly installed SW not found William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2019-02-26 19:51 +0000

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