Re: Shorthand ~> pointers

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Shorthand ~> pointers
Date	2018-12-20 15:00 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<pvg7af$dlp$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <slrn3m64q1mrd6.lf2.andrews@sdf.lonestar.org> <87ftuspg9s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pvfvuj$b0n$2@dont-email.me> <874lb8pf3w.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <6252aef9-18af-4342-8cb8-c15db97a512b@googlegroups.com>

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On 20/12/18 13:29, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
> On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:17:14 AM UTC-5, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> writes:
>>> In CAlive, ...
>> and there it is!  The real reason for posting C++ in the first place.
> 
> CAlive is an aggregate for all of my ideas.  But I also post them here
> because I would like to see C and C++ extended and improved by incorpor-
> ating some of those ideas.

You know fine that this is never going to happen.  You know this without
any doubts, due to three things:

1. C++ does not lightly incorporate new ideas in the language (it is
much easier to add things to the libraries).  C is almost completely
stagnated as a language - as language stability is considered one of the
most important strengths of the language.  (The world needs some
programming languages that change, some that are stable - not one "do
everything" language.)

2. Virtually all your proposals aired here have been rejected on purely
technical grounds by experienced C and/or C++ programmers.  This is not
because of who is making the proposal, or because people prefer to do
things "the way they have always been done".  Every proposal has its
advantages and disadvantages - the advantages must significantly
outweigh the disadvantages in order for an idea to be worth taking
further.  A challenge you have here is that you believe more choice,
more ways to write the same code, is an advantage - most experienced
programmers understand that it is a /disadvantage/.

3. Both C and C++ have their procedures for getting changes into the
languages.  Those procedures do not start with a posting in these
newsgroups - no matter how much any of us liked a proposal, we cannot
add it to the languages.  This is, however, not a bad place to air ideas
before moving on to serious proposal documents posted to the appropriate
mailing lists.

>  I want developers to have better productivity
> in their development.  I want their lives to be enhanced.  I want new
> developers coming into the language to not be put off so easily by the
> historical legacy choices made over decades that are still maintained
> solely because "it's always been done that way."  I want things that make
> sense, and sometimes that means changing the way things are done, or aug-
> menting the way things are done to accommodate a new model.

I believe your motives are genuinely that you want to help people.
However, I don't believe you have enough understanding of how most
programmers think and work, in order to be able to help them.  This is
shown in the proposals you make.  Your ~> suggestion would not help
programmers - it does not solve any problem that they currently have,
but would add confusion and increase the risk of adding problems.  When
people /are/ writing code that involves a lot of subitems and
references, there are already code-based solutions in C and C++.  And
Ben's suggestion of enhancing existing IDE's is a good one - no one will
complain if you want to add helpful features to an IDE or editor.

But you are wrong to think that people's motivations for rejecting your
ideas is because of legacy and "it's always been done that way".
Certainly these concepts are important - compatibility with existing
code, tools, programmers, and knowledge is vital.  Most of us are
willing to consider new things in our programming, but we need to see
the technical advantages of it.

You have this unfortunate tendency to see a problem (or, more often, a
minor inconvenience), think of a possible solution, and then latch on to
that solution as though it were an absolute perfect answer.  This causes
you to get upset when people tell you that answer is /not/ perfect, or
suggest better solutions.  If you kept more of an open mind, I think you
would get better results.

> 
> You have this personal hatred of me and CAlive and will not look past
> that hatred to see that I come here with things to add value to C and
> C++ where applicable.  You project your own internal negativity onto me,
> and it's not justified.  You should look at the positive side of things,
> and not the negative.  You should realize that just maybe I do want to
> aid the C and C++ communities, and am not just "pimping my toolset."
> 

I don't believe that Ben or others here have any kind of personal hatred
of you or your language.  Many people don't like a lot of your posts -
they see them as wildly off-topic and disruptive to the group.  That
does not mean they hate you personally.  I don't think anyone has the
slightest interest in CAlive - no one believes it will ever be ready, or
ever be significant.  That does not mean they hate it - they just do not
care about it.

Even though no one cares about CAlive, or thinks it will succeed in any
way, no one wishes you ill with the project.  People (such as myself) am
happy to give advice or suggestions, despite knowing that the tool will
never be useful to me personally.  I do the same for Bart's languages
when the occasion arises, or Jacob's C compiler which I also know I
never will use.

You assume negative comments are a sign of hatred, but they are not - it
is simply a sign that people do not judge your proposals to be
technically sound.  It is perhaps easier for you to assume that people
have non-technical motives for rejecting your suggestions, but you would
learn far more if you tried to understand why people say certain ideas
are bad.

Thread

Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-19 21:31 -0500
  Re: Shorthand ~> pointers bitrex <user@example.net> - 2018-12-20 03:29 -0500
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 06:40 -0500
  Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Andrew Smallshaw <andrews@sdf.org> - 2018-12-20 10:23 +0000
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-20 11:15 +0000
      Re: Shorthand ~> pointers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-20 13:46 +0100
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-12-20 05:04 -0800
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 05:11 -0800
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 03:25 -0800
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-12-20 11:51 +0000
      Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 06:54 -0500
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-12-20 12:17 +0000
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 07:21 -0500
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-12-20 14:18 +0000
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 09:26 -0500
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 04:29 -0800
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-12-20 04:46 -0800
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-20 15:00 +0100
      Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-20 14:26 +0000
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-12-20 15:03 +0000
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-12-20 07:05 -0800
  Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Fred.Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> - 2018-12-20 11:16 +0100
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 07:16 -0500
  Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-20 12:39 +0000
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 08:20 -0500
      Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-20 14:02 +0000
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-20 09:15 -0500
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-20 17:48 +0000
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2018-12-21 11:36 +0000
      Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 08:05 -0500
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-21 14:56 +0000
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 10:03 -0500
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-21 15:35 +0000
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 10:41 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-21 15:41 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-21 17:04 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 12:23 -0500
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-21 14:57 +0000
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 10:20 -0500
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-21 15:37 +0000
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 10:42 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-21 15:42 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-21 17:39 +0100
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-21 17:05 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 12:24 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-21 23:49 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 13:05 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-22 16:38 -0800
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2018-12-22 18:39 +0000
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 13:42 -0500
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-22 16:23 -0800
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 21:52 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-22 20:26 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 23:54 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-12-23 12:43 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 08:34 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-12-23 08:09 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 11:56 -0500
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2018-12-23 08:24 +0000
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 08:24 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-23 15:28 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 12:15 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-23 17:24 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 12:35 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-23 17:39 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 14:07 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-23 19:17 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 14:52 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-23 21:14 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-23 21:36 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 19:24 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-24 10:14 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 07:53 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-12-24 14:16 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 10:17 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-24 15:36 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 10:43 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-24 15:46 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-24 14:16 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-12-24 22:36 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 18:35 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-24 15:44 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 18:55 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-25 22:20 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-26 05:32 -0500
                You are so full of shit (Was: Shorthand ~> pointers) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-12-26 14:10 +0000
                Re: You are so full of .. (Was: Shorthand ~> pointers) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-26 09:47 -0500
                Re: You are so full of shit (Was: Shorthand ~> pointers) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-12-26 15:21 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-24 08:26 +1300
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 15:02 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-12-28 08:21 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2018-12-25 03:56 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 23:55 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-12-25 10:14 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-25 10:36 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2018-12-24 14:22 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-24 15:47 -0800
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-12-23 16:31 +0800
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 08:28 -0500
  Re: Shorthand ~> pointers nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2018-12-21 01:14 +0000
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 03:23 +0100
      Re: Shorthand ~> pointers nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2018-12-21 09:45 +0000
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-21 12:05 +0100
        Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2018-12-21 21:24 +0000
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-12-21 21:47 +0000
          Re: Shorthand ~> pointers David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-12-22 16:09 +0100
            Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-12-22 11:49 -0500
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-22 18:41 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 21:48 +0300
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 14:00 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-22 19:08 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 16:42 -0800
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-12-22 17:10 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 17:42 -0500
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2018-12-23 10:19 +0000
                Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-23 08:40 -0500
              Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-12-25 21:00 +0000
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-21 07:57 -0500
  Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 14:38 +0100
    Re: Shorthand ~> pointers "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-12-24 10:26 -0500
      Re: Shorthand ~> pointers Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2018-12-28 13:35 +0100

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