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Re: Tomorrow's battery medium

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: Tomorrow's battery medium
Date 2018-10-17 10:43 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <pq6sno$eft$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <e4b5cc0d-09c2-4d5a-81bd-7ec566b70a1c@googlegroups.com> <pq2gqq$stf$1@gioia.aioe.org> <4dea445f-5c7d-4132-8797-30ff9cce2024@googlegroups.com> <pq56cc$1877$1@gioia.aioe.org> <521b3652-88d1-455e-ac26-196d09165e87@googlegroups.com>

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On 16/10/18 21:16, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 18:16:02 UTC+1, 69883925...@nospam.org
> wrote:

>> I am all for 'trickety cars, but I also know enough about 'trickety
>> not to expect miracles. And hydrogen ? Hindenburg, did you see that
>> movie? Driving with a big LPG tank in the back was always on my
>> mind. Had to fix the regulator once, broken PCB, miracle things are
>> sold like that, Expect disaster. That was the relay circuit that
>> was supposed to close the tank valves when the ignition impulses
>> stopped, too bad it was 2 PCBs vertically soldered against each
>> other without any mechanical support, broken of course. Good thing
>> the relay lost power that way,. But LPG cars have blown up,
>> 'trickety cars have caught fire. Hydrogen? Does that stuff not leak
>> out of the smallest hole? Or was that helium? Anyways, people
>> filling kid's balloons (while smoking) from the car sort of images
>> .. better stop here. Ye Never Know Who Is Reading.

Any form of transport where you carry the energy needed (as distinct
from sail ships, electric trams, etc.) means you need to store a lot of
energy in a compact space.  It doesn't matter what form that energy
storage takes - there is always a risk of it being let out rapidly and
uncontrolled when something goes wrong.  /Any/ car can catch fire -
whether it is hydrogen, LPG, batteries, petrol, diesel.

Yes, hydrogen can leak out of small holes - making good hydrogen tanks
is not easy.  But it has the advantage over things like petrol that
leaked fuel dissipates quickly and harmlessly in the air - it is not
harmful to people or the environment, and non-flammable in small quantities.

People don't usually fill kids' balloons with hydrogen - mostly due to
paranoia about hydrogen and burning airships.  But if someone wants to
smoke near their kids, and loses their eyebrows as a result, that's fine
by me - maybe they will learn that it is the smoking that is bad for
their kids, not the balloon or the hydrogen.

>> 
>> Hold on, do not fall off.
> 
> Weird how folk can't see when they're being had. I suspect schools
> train them to be naive.
> 
> PS The Hindenburg disaster was not caused by hydrogen, it was caused
> by the untested rocket-fuel based paint. Engineering objected to it
> on safety grounds but were overruled. And every major form of
> transport, which airships were at the time, have suffered disasters &
> painful losses. Hindenburg had the misfortune of being he first such
> disaster ever filmed.

Yes.  I believe the theory is that static buildups ignited the highly
flammable aluminium paint.

> 
> The main reason there are so few airships today is that there is no
> real niche for them. Fuel efficient but slow & very vulnerable to
> wind. Ships aren't so vulnerable. Also they're now required to use
> helium, which is very expensive.
> 

Airships can definitely be useful in some niches.  But the helium is
expensive, and a limited resource that is essential in many areas.  I'd
like to see more hydrogen used instead of helium, at least in unmanned
balloons and airships.  Automated hydrogen-filled airships could be a
cheap and efficient way to transport goods that don't need high speed
delivery.

But the Hindenburg has made people paranoid about hydrogen, and hugely
inflated their ideas about the risks.  It's a bit like radioactivity and
nuclear power in that respect - people go to pieces when they hear there
is a radiation leak, even if the levels are equivalent to eating one
banana a year.

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Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-13 02:15 +0000
  Re: Tomorrow's battery medium John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-12 21:14 -0700
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-12 22:39 -0700
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-13 09:22 +0000
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-13 23:00 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-14 12:24 +0000
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-12 23:50 -0700
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-13 09:13 +0000
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2018-10-13 10:47 +0000
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-13 15:19 -0700
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-13 18:46 -0400
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-13 16:17 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium krw@notreal.com - 2018-10-13 21:04 -0400
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-13 13:42 +0100
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-13 13:02 +0000
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-13 07:06 -0700
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 11:38 -0700
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-13 15:05 -0400
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-13 20:39 +0000
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-13 17:27 -0400
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-13 16:14 -0700
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-13 16:56 -0700
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 00:32 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-14 18:53 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-14 19:52 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-14 20:07 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-14 21:22 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 08:19 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 14:55 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 16:21 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 21:17 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 05:22 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 06:57 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-15 18:48 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 02:13 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-15 03:17 +0000
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-15 09:56 +0200
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-15 03:48 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 05:58 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-15 16:34 +0200
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 08:09 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-15 16:55 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 11:01 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 21:03 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-16 07:20 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 08:31 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-16 17:15 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 06:17 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium makolber@yahoo.com - 2018-10-16 06:54 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 07:12 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium makolber@yahoo.com - 2018-10-17 06:30 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 12:00 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-17 20:02 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 15:27 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-18 06:00 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 23:50 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-18 03:35 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-18 04:08 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 20:29 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 20:05 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-16 17:15 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 12:16 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-17 10:43 +0200
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-17 10:44 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 11:22 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 20:22 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-16 13:35 +0200
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 10:08 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-17 12:14 +0200
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 05:33 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 09:02 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 15:00 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 16:22 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-16 14:52 +0200
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-15 19:16 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 02:30 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-16 12:00 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 05:43 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 06:46 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-16 15:16 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-16 20:14 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-16 21:26 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 15:22 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium krw@notreal.com - 2018-10-16 19:43 -0400
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 19:33 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 18:40 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-16 14:44 +0200
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 06:46 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-16 14:58 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-16 20:31 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-16 21:31 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 18:36 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-17 04:21 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 23:56 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 11:15 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 20:18 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org> - 2018-10-19 14:13 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-19 16:56 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 09:49 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 19:28 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-17 13:32 +0200
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 11:58 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 17:10 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 19:07 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 21:06 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-17 19:54 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> - 2018-10-15 17:04 +0100
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-16 14:59 +0200
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2018-10-14 09:31 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-14 10:03 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-14 17:55 +0000
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-14 12:47 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-14 16:17 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-14 18:06 +0000
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium krw@notreal.com - 2018-10-14 14:33 -0400
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> - 2018-10-15 12:17 +0100
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-15 11:34 +0000
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-15 13:30 +0000
      Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-18 06:28 +0000
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2018-10-18 09:42 +0200
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-18 04:04 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2018-10-18 14:23 +0200
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-18 20:15 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-18 13:18 +0000
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-18 20:00 +0000
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-18 14:34 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2018-10-18 15:10 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-19 07:11 +0000
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-18 20:31 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 14:14 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-19 17:14 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 20:20 -0700
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-19 21:16 -0700
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2018-10-18 06:26 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-18 20:24 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-19 07:11 +0000
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-19 09:21 +0200
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-19 07:37 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-19 05:07 -0700
        Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-28 00:17 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-28 00:26 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-28 01:20 -0700
          Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2018-10-28 10:55 +0000
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-28 04:01 -0700
            Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-31 19:58 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-31 23:02 -0700
              Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2018-11-03 00:13 +0000
                Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-11-02 18:52 -0700
  Re: Tomorrow's battery medium John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-13 08:42 -0700
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-13 16:50 -0700
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2018-10-13 19:01 -0700
  Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2018-10-13 17:28 -0700
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2018-10-13 17:47 -0700
  Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-13 22:53 -0700
  Re: Tomorrow's battery medium Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 11:59 -0700
    Re: Tomorrow's battery medium bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-14 16:14 -0700

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